What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[TransmutingSoul]

Through my experience, the Bahai apologists do the most quote mining, and double standards. When inconvenient they will twist the Bible to mean "allegorical", and when convenient they will adopt certain verses they cherry picked. This is normal apologetics for most Bahai's.

This comes from an understanding of what the Baha'i Writings have explained about Biblical Interpretation.

The Bible is sure spiritual guidance, a lot of it is bound in metaphorical illusions of the spiritual worlds.

Abdu'l-Baha explains why this is needed and as it is a most important subject, he put this talk first before discussing other Christian topics. @Trailblazer

If you wish to understand why we present the Bible in the manner we do, then this is why.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Any of these things can definitely be proven either true or false. Just that you need proof.

None of these things can be proven either true or false.
That is why they are beliefs and not facts.

How do you prove that:

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

are true or false?

I believe 1-4 are all false and I can cite scriptures but any Christian can come back and cite scriptures that they think means they are true.

Scriptures are not proof of anything since:
a) nobody can prove that they came from God.
b) They can be interpreted differently by different people.

 

[Trailblazer]

you dont know what hell is

Neither do you. Nobody knows what hell is unless they have been there and that's a heck of a way to find out.
I was only offering my belief, that's not knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

The hypocrisy of wanting to put the Jewish and not Christ's commandments in schools is the end result.

How are the Jewish commandments put in schools?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Through my experience, the Bahai apologists do the most quote mining, and double standards. When inconvenient they will twist the Bible to mean "allegorical", and when convenient they will adopt certain verses they cherry picked. This is normal apologetics for most Bahai's.

Can you give an example?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So strange for me to be siding with TB on this, but I think it is being dishonest for a Baha'i to try and pretend the Baha'i Faith fully supports the Bible and the NT.

That is why Abdul'baha was the "Servant of Baha", Abdul'baha was giving us the key to understanding all scriptures.

It is not about finding fault, it is about finding the Truth in the Word of God.

Shoghi Effendi was giving the Balance, showing us why the Bible was sure spiritual guidance, but also allowing Baha'i not to become so fanatical about it, that we hold on to every word and letter to prove exclusive opinions. Shoghi Effendi also said;

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation...that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized,.."
(Shoghi Effendi, Promised Day Is Come, par. 269)

Also with quotes you must include every part of the reference and should not alter the reference.

Example two quotes above are (from a letter written to an individual on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, 11 February 1944)

We have been given the key to find all the Divine inspiration that the Bible contains and to share that inspiration, we also have the ability to cloud that inspiration with our own negative opinions.

There is a reason that these issues are not fully disclosed to us, God allows us to find our unity in our diversity. Somehow we all have to find our peace in the balance given by Baha'u'llah.

You offered above


Have you read that wrong? That's is Baha'u'llah showing great reverence for the Bible by confirming the Bible. Also it may be worth noting what Baha'u'llah has called the people that assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, this is what you are actually offering, and I see it is an incorrect action to take.

It's all about the balance, knowing the Bible is sure spiritual guidance, in the knowledge that not all the words are exactly correct.

As to how people interpreted the Bible in the past, not all took the stories literally, unfortunately a majority that wanted control over Christianity and the minds of men, did.

This is all given in the Bible and as such, it was indeed a sure spiritual guide to those that submitted to Christ and practiced Love, compassion, mercy and justice.

Regards Tony

This comes from an understanding of what the Baha'i Writings have explained about Biblical Interpretation.

The Bible is sure spiritual guidance, a lot of it is bound in metaphorical illusions of the spiritual worlds.

Abdu'l-Baha explains why this is needed and as it is a most important subject, he put this talk first before discussing other Christian topics. @Trailblazer

If you wish to understand why we present the Bible in the manner we do, then this is why.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Regards Tony

CG, I provided my answer in those 2 replies.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That Baha'is take those stories to be symbolic and not literally true. So, they are not "sure" guides until they are interpreted according to Baha'is beliefs, and their "true" symbolic meaning is revealed, and then they have some kind of "sure" guidance for a Baha'i.

I see that is your argument with God CG, as this is the way God has always given the Messengers, they one and all clarify our misunderstandings.

Why does God sent the Messengers and give the requirement for us to embrace the new message as life and rejection as death?

They clarify the previous scriptures and have the Authority of God to add to it, or repeal.

"Even as He hath revealed: ‘Do men think when they say “We believe” they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?’" Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

How you choose to believe is entirely up to you.

Regards Tony

 

[GoodAttention]

How are the Jewish commandments put in schools?

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/24/nx-s1-5017933/louisiana-mandate-stirs-debate-about-what-the-10-commandments-and-their-purpose

 

[Trailblazer]

That is why Abdul'baha was the "Servant of Baha", Abdul'baha was giving us the key to understanding all scriptures.

It is not about finding fault, it is about finding the Truth in the Word of God.

I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe it is the words of men, some of whom might have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Shoghi Effendi was giving the Balance, showing us why the Bible was sure spiritual guidance, but also allowing Baha'i not to become so fanatical about it, that we hold on to every word and letter to prove exclusive opinions. Shoghi Effendi also said;

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation...that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized,.."
(Shoghi Effendi, Promised Day Is Come, par. 269)

The divine inspiration of the Gospel is not fully recognized by me since it can never be proven that those authors were divinely inspired.
It makes no sense to me that the Bible could be divinely inspired since it has so many errors and contradictions.
I cannot believe what makes no sense to me.

We have been given the key to find all the Divine inspiration that the Bible contains and to share that inspiration, we also have the ability to cloud that inspiration with our own negative opinions.

We also have the ability to imagine divine inspiration that isn't there with our own positive opinions.

When I became a Baha'i' I did not sign a card that said I believe in the Bible. The card only said that I believe in Baha'u'llah.

There is a reason that these issues are not fully disclosed to us, God allows us to find our unity in our diversity. Somehow we all have to find our peace in the balance given by Baha'u'llah.

Maybe God allows diversity but some Baha'is do not allow that.

You offered above
Have you read that wrong? That's is Baha'u'llah showing great reverence for the Bible by confirming the Bible. Also it may be worth noting what Baha'u'llah has called the people that assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, this is what you are actually offering, and I see it is an incorrect action to take.

Baha'u'llah never said He had great reverence for the Bible. All He said was that the New Testament was Jesus' the holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.

"How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

It's all about the balance, knowing the Bible is sure spiritual guidance, in the knowledge that not all the words are exactly correct.

Christians need the Bible for spiritual guidance but I do not need the Bible for spiritual guidance because I have the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
Does an Hindu or a Buddhist or a Muslim need the Bible for spiritual guidance?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

None of these things can be proven either true or false.
That is why they are beliefs and not facts.

How do you prove that:

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

are true or false?

I believe 1-4 are all false and I can cite scriptures but any Christian can come back and cite scriptures that they think means they are true.

Scriptures are not proof of anything since:
a) nobody can prove that they came from God.
b) They can be interpreted differently by different people.

The Kitab-i-iqan shows us how all those points are True and not true.

The proof are the Messengers, as all the Names and Attributes of God are made manifested in each subsequent Messenger.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán also explains how some of that appears manifested in this world, and some does not, but is fully manifested in the world's to come.

We are but children and the knowledge we have been given is relative to our current capacity.

The key here Trailblazer is this piece of advise by Abdul'baha, which is taken from Baha'u'llah's Writings.

"In brief, O ye believers of God! The text of the divine Book is this: If two souls quarrel and contend about a question of the divine questions, differing and disputing, both are wrong. The wisdom of this incontrovertible law of God is this: That between two souls from amongst the believers of God, no contention and dispute may arise; that they may speak with each other with infinite amity and love. Should there appear the least trace of controversy, they must remain silent, and both parties must continue their discussions no longer, but ask the reality of the question from the Interpreter. This is the irrefutable command!" ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 56

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does an Hindu or a Buddhist or a Muslim need the Bible for spiritual guidance?

I see they, like all of us, can learn much from what the Bible offers. Jesus like the Bab gave thier lives to show us total Detachment from this world of illusion, and to bring us to One God.

The Bible is the gift of that Detachment. God gave Jesus given Word as the Christ and it is the early beleivers that submitted to Christ, that gave it to us in its current form, which I read in that passage from Baha'u'llah, was the God given testomony of the Word of God. What better test does a Christian now face, than to have to again take a look at the Spirit that was behind that Word.

Why should a Christian not be tested in such a way?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see that is your argument with God CG, as this is the way God has always given the Messengers, they one and all clarify our misunderstandings.

Okay, go in chronological order and go through all the manifestations listed as being true in the Baha'i writings, which I believe should include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Tell me what were the misunderstandings people had of each and how the manifestation that followed him clarified it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, go in chronological order and go through all the manifestations listed as being true in the Baha'i writings, which I believe should include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Tell me what were the misunderstandings people had of each and how the manifestation that followed him clarified it.

I see that is something you could do if you need that clarity CG.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

None of these things can be proven either true or false.
That is why they are beliefs and not facts.

How do you prove that:

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

are true or false?

I believe 1-4 are all false and I can cite scriptures but any Christian can come back and cite scriptures that they think means they are true.

Scriptures are not proof of anything since:
a) nobody can prove that they came from God.
b) They can be interpreted differently by different people.

If you can prove Jesus was a human being, he cannot be God. That's how you could prove something.

Maybe your faith is just faith, mine is not so we are speaking from different stances. That ends the conversation. It's useless.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see that is something you could do if you need that clarity CG.

Regards Tony

No, that's a cop out. You need to show that what you said is true. That each manifestation clarifies the misunderstandings from the previous one.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see they, like all of us, can learn much from what the Bible offers.

I did not ask what they can learn from the Bible. I asked if they needed the Bible for spiritual guidance.

I asked: Does an Hindu or a Buddhist or a Muslim need the Bible for spiritual guidance?

Jesus like the Bab gave thier lives to show us total Detachment from this world of illusion, and to bring us to One God.

The Bible is the gift of that Detachment. God gave Jesus given Word as the Christ and it is the early beleivers that submitted to Christ, that gave it to us in its current form, which I read in that passage from Baha'u'llah, was the God given testomony of the Word of God. What better test does a Christian now face, than to have to again take a look at the Spirit that was behind that Word.

Why should a Christian not be tested in such a way?

I never said anything about Christians not being tested. We are all tested in different ways.

That is really not a test that Christians face since all they need is Jesus.

Christians are not going to look at the Spirit that is behind the Word. They are ONLY going to look at Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, go in chronological order and go through all the manifestations listed as being true in the Baha'i writings, which I believe should include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Tell me what were the misunderstandings people had of each and how the manifestation that followed him clarified it.

The manifestation that followed the other manifestations did not clarify any misunderstandings.
Baha'u'llah is the only manifestation that clarified the misunderstandings of the past manifestations.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you can prove Jesus was a human being, he cannot be God. That's how you could prove something.

That is proof to you and me or anyone who thinks logically but it is not proof to Christians.
They can still claim that Jesus is God by using their Trinity doctrine.
They can also say that God can become a man even though the Bible says that God is not a man.
It doesn't have to make sense.

And how can you prove that Jesus is not the only way to God?
How do you prove that Jesus did not rise from the grave?
How do you prove that Jesus is not going to return?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, that's a cop out. You need to show that what you said is true. That each manifestation clarifies the misunderstandings from the previous one.

It is no cop out, it is something we can all find for our own selves.

Jesus used the Old Testament all the time to explain how it was applicable to the Word of God that Jesus was sharing.

Have at look at but one link offered by one Christian group.

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The Message itself clarifies the Messages before, remembering that they are full of prophecies about the Messengers to come, they are full.of timeless Words, which have one and seventy and meanings

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

This is also the Word's capacity in all Scriptures.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"All the texts and teachings of the holy Testaments have intrinsic spiritual meanings. They are not to be taken literally. I, therefore, pray in your behalf that you may be given the power of understanding these inner real meanings of the Holy Scriptures and may become informed of the mysteries deposited in the words of the Bible so that you may attain eternal life and that your hearts may be attracted to the Kingdom of God." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 459-460

One must Immerse themselves in the ocean of God's Word's that they may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths.

Regards Tony

 

[1213]

I believe your 1. is false according to the Bible. Jesus is God in the flesh.

Please show where in the Bible it is said "Jesus is God in the flesh?