What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

Actually, there is a template already for the religions accepting each other's Messengers. My wife and I lived in Trinidad. Soon after arriving we attended a very large meeting that included the religious leaders of every religion there. To my amazement, they seemed to accept each other's prophets as valid. Then I noticed there were Muslims whose favorite holiday was Diwali and Hindus who liked observing Christian and Muslim holidays and Christians observing Hindu and Muslim holidays, etc. Not everyone accepted the other's Messenger as true, but in talking with people, it seemed that was the predominant thought of people there. Not surprisingly, Trinidad has more holidays than just about any place on earth. Trinidad is roughly 50% African heritage, 30% from India and 20% Chinese heritage, but in many parts if the island, the intermarrying is so common that it's hard to tell who is who - a true rainbow country. There are problems with crime and corruption like in most of the world, but much less stratification than in the US. People there will tell you they are happy and I think all this may be the reason why.

Thanks for that information much appreciated.

 

[Secret Chief]

I apologise if I misunderstood your question. I’ll try again. My understanding is that from the scriptures we do have, that Buddha did not deny the existence of God. There is this passage which I believe refers to God. I have come across this statement by Buddha and personally believe it refers to God so I’m quoting it here .

The Absolute. The Buddhas have assured us that behind this impermanent world and its illusion, there is a reality, the Absolute Reality. Because of this, it is possible for us to escape from the sorrow caused by the chances and changes of this world. Gautama Buddha speaks of the Supramundane (lokuttara, lokottara) or Unconditioned (asankhata, asamskrita). Being beyond this world, we have no adequate words to speak of the Absolute.

The following is the Buddha's description of it in the famous Udana passage in the Khuddaka Nikaya: "There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move" (Udana 8:3).

Nagarjuna, the founder of the Madhyamika school of Buddhism, argues from this passage that without the acceptance of an Ultimate Reality (Paramartha) there can be no deliverance (nirvana) (Madhyamika Karikas, cited in Murti 235).

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

I don't see that as a description of the Abrahamic creator deity.

As an aside, given the Bahai stance of seemingly focussing on the words of only the Buddha (iro Buddhism), albeit they may have been misunderstood/mistranslated/changed, I'm surprised to see you bringing in another name - Nagarjuna. Especially since you can't get much further away from the Abrahamic god than the philosophy of Nagarjuna, whose primary focus is sunyata:

"Nāgārjuna's major thematic focus is the concept of śūnyatā (translated into English as "emptiness") which brings together other key Buddhist doctrines, particularly anātman "not-self" and pratītyasamutpāda "dependent origination", to refute the metaphysics of some of his contemporaries. For Nāgārjuna, as for the Buddha in the early texts, it is not merely sentient beings that are "selfless" or non-substantial; all phenomena (dhammas) are without any svabhāva, literally "own-being", "self-nature", or "inherent existence" and thus without any underlying essence. They are empty of being independently existent; thus the heterodox theories of svabhāva circulating at the time were refuted on the basis of the doctrines of early Buddhism. This is so because all things arise always dependently: not by their own power, but by depending on conditions leading to their coming into existence, as opposed to being."

- Nagarjuna - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha’is are former adherents of theses religions who believe He is the the return of their prophet/teacher. Their religion is not wrong but it will take time for people to accept Baha’u’llah. It took centuries with Jesus so it’s not an instant overnight mass acceptance. Anyway thanks very much for pointing that out .

Nonsense. At least half the Baha'is were born in Iran as Baha'is. Others came from no religion. Name me a practicing Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian who thinks Baha'u'llah is the new guy.

 

[Vinayaka]

Actually, there is a template already for the religions accepting each other's Messengers. My wife and I lived in Trinidad. Soon after arriving we attended a very large meeting that included the religious leaders of every religion there. To my amazement, they seemed to accept each other's prophets as valid. Then I noticed there were Muslims whose favorite holiday was Diwali and Hindus who liked observing Christian and Muslim holidays and Christians observing Hindu and Muslim holidays, etc. Not everyone accepted the other's Messenger as true, but in talking with people, it seemed that was the predominant thought of people there. Not surprisingly, Trinidad has more holidays than just about any place on earth. Trinidad is roughly 50% African heritage, 30% from India and 20% Chinese heritage, but in many parts if the island, the intermarrying is so common that it's hard to tell who is who - a true rainbow country. There are problems with crime and corruption like in most of the world, but much less stratification than in the US. People there will tell you they are happy and I think all this may be the reason why.

Trinidad is a great place, I know several Hindus from there. It's interesting how the sugar diaspora developed slightly differently in so many places.

 

[Vinayaka]

I apologise if I misunderstood your question. I’ll try again. My understanding is that from the scriptures we do have, that Buddha did not deny the existence of God. There is this passage which I believe refers to God. I have come across this statement by Buddha and personally believe it refers to God so I’m quoting it here .

The Absolute. The Buddhas have assured us that behind this impermanent world and its illusion, there is a reality, the Absolute Reality. Because of this, it is possible for us to escape from the sorrow caused by the chances and changes of this world. Gautama Buddha speaks of the Supramundane (lokuttara, lokottara) or Unconditioned (asankhata, asamskrita). Being beyond this world, we have no adequate words to speak of the Absolute.

The following is the Buddha's description of it in the famous Udana passage in the Khuddaka Nikaya: "There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move" (Udana 8:3).

Nagarjuna, the founder of the Madhyamika school of Buddhism, argues from this passage that without the acceptance of an Ultimate Reality (Paramartha) there can be no deliverance (nirvana) (Madhyamika Karikas, cited in Murti 235).

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Using a Baha'i source for your info doesn't go well here. Just as Moomen butchered Hinduism, I'm sure he did no justice to Buddhism either. Buddhism has many schools, and ethnicities. Wide varieties.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All that said, I still believe in Baha'u'llah, just not in all the baggage that goes with being a Baha'i.

That is part of the challenge of fostering a unity in our diversity.

We have to be able to let go of a lot of our own self.

That is the journey called Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Using a Baha'i source for your info doesn't go well here. Just as Moomen butchered Hinduism, I'm sure he did no justice to Buddhism either. Buddhism has many schools, and ethnicities. Wide varieties.

Abdu'l-Baha simple said that the original teachings of Buddha have been mostly neglected in the worshiop of Idols, but the original teachings were pure, the same as Christ.

Spoiler: AbdulBaha in London Pages 63-64

Buddhism

1
Some referred to the teaching of Buddha. `Abdu'l-Bahá said: The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it.


2
Buddha had disciples and he wished to send them out into the world to teach, so he asked them questions to see if they were prepared as he would have them be. "When you go to the East and to the West," said the Buddha, "and the people shut their doors to you and refuse to speak to you, what will you do?"--The disciples answered and said: "We shall be very thankful that they do us no harm."--"Then if they do you harm and mock, what will you do?"--"We shall be very thankful that they do not give us worse treatment."--"If they throw you into prison?"--"We shall still be grateful that they do not kill us."--"What if they were to kill you?" the Master asked for the last time. "Still," answered the disciples, "we will be thankful, for they cause us to be martyrs. What more glorious fate is there than this, to die for the glory of God?" And the Buddha said: "Well done!"


3
The teaching of Buddha was like a young and beautiful child, and now it has become as an old and decrepit man. Like the aged man it cannot see, it cannot hear, it cannot remember anything. Why go so far back? Consider the laws of the Old Testament: the Jews do not follow Moses as their example nor keep his commands. So it is with many other religions.


4
How can we get the power to follow the right path?


5
By putting the teaching into practice power will be given. You know which path to follow: you cannot be mistaken, for there's a great distinction between God and evil, between Light and darkness, Truth and falsehood, Love and hatred, Generosity and meanness, Education and ignorance, Faith in God and superstition, good Laws and unjust laws.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That is part of the challenge of fostering a unity in our diversity.

We have to be able to let go of a lot of our own self.

That is the journey called Faith.

Regards Tony

I do not think that 'baggage' is necessarily attributed to 'our own self.'
There are a lot of fixed ideas that go along with being a Baha'i.

What does baggage mean slang?

You can use baggage to refer to someone's emotional problems, fixed ideas, or prejudices.

BAGGAGE definition in American English - Collins Dictionary​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not think that 'baggage' is necessarily attributed to 'our own self.'
There are a lot of fixed ideas that go along with being a Baha'i.

What does baggage mean slang?

You can use baggage to refer to someone's emotional problems, fixed ideas, or prejudices.

BAGGAGE definition in American English - Collins Dictionary​

That is because the Faith is also a way of life that is meant to unite families, communities, cities and Nations. It requires us to be part of the process.

The Message of Baha’u’llah is not given for only self fulfillment, for the individual to do their own thing. In fact, I have seen what happens when goals are pursued that are not community based, only individual initiatives, they eventually dissipate and all effort is lost.

The Faith was given to build bridges and luckily we have the Universal House of Justice and the National Spiritual Assemblies that arr building those bridges between Nations.

We can play our part only by connecting to the whole.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is not exactly what Baha'u'llah said, it is your interpretation of what He said.
You and the other Baha'is have turned Abdu'l-Baha into an idol who you worship, and I cannot do that.
The UHJ building a shrine for Abdu'l-Baha says it all.

God knows exactly how I feel about Abdu'l-Baha, and I don't think that God considers me someone who has turned away from Him, just because of how I feel. I cannot change how I feel simply by willing it to be the case, even if I want to. I don't want to change how I feel simply because of some Baha'i dogma.

What you need to do here Susan is to study the History as to why there is a Shrine being built for Abdul'baha, and what it represents. It does not represent the worship of Abdul'baha.

Where Abdul'baha is currently buried, in the Shrine of the Bab, was always going to be a temporary arrangement.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

the original teachings of Buddha have been mostly neglected

More than odd that Nagarjuna is getting referred to above then. Still, any port in a storm.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

More than odd that Nagarjuna is getting referred to above then. Still, any port in a storm.

The Buddha offered that He returns when the teachings are lost and neglected, so it is alao a promise of better times.

"...According to this widely held understanding, each buddha discovers the same truth about reality as that realized by his predecessors, and then he teaches it to a community of followers. After a certain period of time, however (commonly ranging from five hundred to five thousand years), this truth will be forgotten, thus necessitating its rediscovery by another buddha in the future..."

Decline of the Dharma | Encyclopedia.com

DECLINE OF THE DHARMAThe first of the "three marks of existence"—anitya (impermanence), anātman (no-self), and duḤkha (suffering)—holds that all conditioned (that is, causally produced) phenomena are transitory. With striking consistency, most Buddhists over the centuries have believed this to...

www.encyclopedia.com

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

The Buddha offered that He returns when the teachings are lost and neglected, so it is alao a promise of better times.

"...According to this widely held understanding, each buddha discovers the same truth about reality as that realized by his predecessors, and then he teaches it to a community of followers. After a certain period of time, however (commonly ranging from five hundred to five thousand years), this truth will be forgotten, thus necessitating its rediscovery by another buddha in the future..."

Decline of the Dharma | Encyclopedia.com

DECLINE OF THE DHARMAThe first of the "three marks of existence"—anitya (impermanence), anātman (no-self), and duḤkha (suffering)—holds that all conditioned (that is, causally produced) phenomena are transitory. With striking consistency, most Buddhists over the centuries have believed this to...

www.encyclopedia.com

Regards Tony

Yes I am aware of that. This is really tiresome. What is your take on Nagarjuna?

 

[Sundance]

Nonsense. At least half the Baha'is were born in Iran as Baha'is. Others came from no religion. Name me a practicing Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian who thinks Baha'u'llah is the new guy.

Vinayaka, I won’t presume to speak for individuals who come from other religious backgrounds, but I can come from my own experience. As someone who grew up in a very devout Christian that later accepted Bahá’u’lláh, admittedly it was very difficult to do. I was so drawn to Him, but that claim to be the Return of Christ Jesus, my Christ Jesus, I couldn’t receive it! I was so accustomed to one understanding of the New Testament that anything that served to challenge it, I considered it bankrupt. Then, I made a choice to listen to what Bahá’ís had to say, give them the benefit of the doubt. I read a book called ‘The Wine of Astonishment’ by William Sears, and I mulled over it and became sincerely convinced of the truth in Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation. Thinking back on it, I feel a similar way to an early follower of Jesus Christ, Who also presented people with an unorthodox interpretation of the Scriptures that had come before, and invited them to accept it. Many turned away from Him due to not being willing to give Him an honest look for themselves, even if they felt they disagreed in the end.

 

[Sundance]

Actually, there is a template already for the religions accepting each other's Messengers. My wife and I lived in Trinidad. Soon after arriving we attended a very large meeting that included the religious leaders of every religion there. To my amazement, they seemed to accept each other's prophets as valid. Then I noticed there were Muslims whose favorite holiday was Diwali and Hindus who liked observing Christian and Muslim holidays and Christians observing Hindu and Muslim holidays, etc. Not everyone accepted the other's Messenger as true, but in talking with people, it seemed that was the predominant thought of people there. Not surprisingly, Trinidad has more holidays than just about any place on earth. Trinidad is roughly 50% African heritage, 30% from India and 20% Chinese heritage, but in many parts if the island, the intermarrying is so common that it's hard to tell who is who - a true rainbow country. There are problems with crime and corruption like in most of the world, but much less stratification than in the US. People there will tell you they are happy and I think all this may be the reason why.

I’ve read this many places! I think it’s a wonderful thing that people can recognize whatever is good and joyous in each other’s religions! *sigh* If only the US was the same as diverse as we are here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Abdu'l-Baha simple said that the original teachings of Buddha have been mostly neglected in the worshiop of Idols, but the original teachings were pure, the same as Christ.

Spoiler: AbdulBaha in London Pages 63-64

Buddhism

1
Some referred to the teaching of Buddha. `Abdu'l-Bahá said: The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it.


2
Buddha had disciples and he wished to send them out into the world to teach, so he asked them questions to see if they were prepared as he would have them be. "When you go to the East and to the West," said the Buddha, "and the people shut their doors to you and refuse to speak to you, what will you do?"--The disciples answered and said: "We shall be very thankful that they do us no harm."--"Then if they do you harm and mock, what will you do?"--"We shall be very thankful that they do not give us worse treatment."--"If they throw you into prison?"--"We shall still be grateful that they do not kill us."--"What if they were to kill you?" the Master asked for the last time. "Still," answered the disciples, "we will be thankful, for they cause us to be martyrs. What more glorious fate is there than this, to die for the glory of God?" And the Buddha said: "Well done!"


3
The teaching of Buddha was like a young and beautiful child, and now it has become as an old and decrepit man. Like the aged man it cannot see, it cannot hear, it cannot remember anything. Why go so far back? Consider the laws of the Old Testament: the Jews do not follow Moses as their example nor keep his commands. So it is with many other religions.


4
How can we get the power to follow the right path?


5
By putting the teaching into practice power will be given. You know which path to follow: you cannot be mistaken, for there's a great distinction between God and evil, between Light and darkness, Truth and falsehood, Love and hatred, Generosity and meanness, Education and ignorance, Faith in God and superstition, good Laws and unjust laws.

Regards Tony

Yes, that's what he said, and no Buddhist agrees with him.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is because the Faith is also a way of life that is meant to unite families, communities, cities and Nations. It requires us to be part of the process.

We can play our part only by connecting to the whole.

I guess I won't be playing my part then.

 

[Vinayaka]

Vinayaka, I won’t presume to speak for individuals who come from other religious backgrounds, but I can come from my own experience. As someone who grew up in a very devout Christian that later accepted Bahá’u’lláh, admittedly it was very difficult to do. I was so drawn to Him, but that claim to be the Return of Christ Jesus, my Christ Jesus, I couldn’t receive it! I was so accustomed to one understanding of the New Testament that anything that served to challenge it, I considered it bankrupt. Then, I made a choice to listen to what Bahá’ís had to say, give them the benefit of the doubt. I read a book called ‘The Wine of Astonishment’ by William Sears, and I mulled over it and became sincerely convinced of the truth in Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation. Thinking back on it, I feel a similar way to an early follower of Jesus Christ, Who also presented people with an unorthodox interpretation of the Scriptures that had come before, and invited them to accept it. Many turned away from Him due to not being willing to give Him an honest look for themselves, even if they felt they disagreed in the end.

Sure. I never said it didn't happen. But with well over a billion Christian adherents, and with most likely less than 2 million active Baha'is, you're a rarity, probably less than 1 in a thousand. People switch religions all the time, for various reasons.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then, I made a choice to listen to what Bahá’ís had to say, give them the benefit of the doubt. I read a book called ‘The Wine of Astonishment’ by William Sears, and I mulled over it and became sincerely convinced of the truth in Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation.

My late husband was similarly turned off by the Baha'i Faith when he first heard about it from his father.
He also did not like Protestant Christianity but he wanted to be a Catholic. It was the book ‘The Wine of Astonishment’ that convinced him that the Baha'i Faith was true.

 

[Secret Chief]

I guess I won't be playing my part then.

Your cats need you.