That is a God given challenge, clear as the midday sun, to He whom God made manifest, the knower of many unseen things.
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What if we accepted each others Religion?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
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And you know this how?
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Challenged? Don't flatter yourself. I'm responding to the blatant misrepresentation of Buddhism on a public forum. I do not wish any reader of RF to think that the Bahai misrepresentation is what Buddhism actually is. In the real world I wouldn't bother wasting my time, the same as when JWs or Mormons appear at my front door or in town. They soon realise they are wasting their time trying to save me (or whatever it is they think they're doing) and wander off to try their luck with someone else.
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Replace Buddhism with Hinduism, and you have me, 10 years ago. Fortunately, I don't think too many people, if any, other than the Baha'i themselves, are mislead by their blatant inaccuracy.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As a Baha'i, I believe that the Day of Judgment is when Christ returns and it is also the Day of Resurrection, the raising of the dead. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.
I believe that the Day of Judgment is a period of time after Christ returns when the sheep are being separated from the goats. The sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd, who I believe is Baha'u'llah, follow Him and gain Eternal Life. The goats reject Christ when He returns and thus consign themselves to deprivation and loss of Eternal Life. It is called the Day of Judgment because by acceptance or rejection of Christ, when He returns, believers are spiritually resurrected or remain spiritually dead, and are thereby judged by God.
The Day of Judgment
Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—
… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.
The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.
In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220
So, what do you think is going to happen on the day of judgment, what event will usher it in?
So do you think what you said this will happen on one day or over the course of time?
I don't think it is realistic to think that humanity will all change in a day, this takes time.
I do believe that the day will come when people are all submissive to God, but that will not happen for a very long time, since people don't change overnight.
According to the Bible and the Baha'i Writings in the future everyone will believe in God. People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they want to now but the future will be wholly different and everyone will know that God exists and everyone will choose to believe in God because God has never forced anyone to believe against their will.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154
I don't mind Bahais presenting their views and calling to their faith. That's normal. However, I think their interpretation of Quran and narrations they quote have been been proven far fetch and impossible. I believe from my experience they are lead to make statements mean what they desire even if it's very inaccurate of language.
At the end, dialogue with a Bahai is intensely more difficult then people of other sects and creeds. Because language loses it's form where statements can mean almost anything. I dialogue for two reasons:
(1) In hope a Bahai make awaken out of their falsehood.
(2) Education wise, so people are aware of the contradictions between Islam and Quran and hadiths vs Bahai faith.
I don't believe they are truthful people. But this is not particular to them, I believe this is true of all people who follow falsehood unless they have no means to truth or they are incapable of reaching the proofs for various reasons (can be mental illness for example, can be poverty keeps them from having time and resources, etc).
At the end, dialogue with a Bahai is intensely more difficult then people of other sects and creeds. Because language loses it's form where statements can mean almost anything. I dialogue for two reasons:
(1) In hope a Bahai make awaken out of their falsehood.
(2) Education wise, so people are aware of the contradictions between Islam and Quran and hadiths vs Bahai faith.
I don't believe they are truthful people. But this is not particular to them, I believe this is true of all people who follow falsehood unless they have no means to truth or they are incapable of reaching the proofs for various reasons (can be mental illness for example, can be poverty keeps them from having time and resources, etc).
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The day of judgment occurs after destruction of people. There is two trumpets, the first everyone dies. The second everyone is raised to life.
How the truth will occur is through eight type of signs.
And it's metaphorically a day, but really it's forever. It's called the last day because it's the final destination and forever ending state. However, 50 000 years will be ascension to God on that day. So it's not a literal one day thing.
Day means truth is manifest, so it's clear. This is contrast to the 10 nights (Hassan to Hassan), and pair (Ali and Fatima) and single (Mohammad) and the night when it passes (the ghayba of Imam Mahdi (a) ends), so Imam Mahdi (a) is like the morning day light to the world.
However, even though Imam Mahdi (a) will bring the truth and manifest it, it's not the same as the day of judgment type proof. Even though his day is one of God's days, it's not the same as the day of judgment as in the final day.
And God won't allow disbelievers to dispute and they will be scared of God's forces, and won't put a fight, and so with that, the truth will be manifest. Among the evidence is that the records of deeds will be put in display. The Witnesses will testify.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
With all due respect, who gave you the authority to 'accurately' interpret the Qur'an? By interpret I mean assign meanings to verses.
I ask the same question of Christians regarding the Bible.
What is truth and what is falsehood?
So, are only Muslims who follow the Qur'an and interpret it as you do the only people who are not in falsehood?
I don't assign meanings, I'm rather just defending their clear implications by contextualizing them with respect to each other.
Muslims are in falsehood. Shiites are not fully on truth either. Neither am I.
However, the Quran is a clear book per Quran. So it makes sense to seek clear insights and stick to what is clear, and only build on what is clear. If it forbid following unclear or ambiguity from it, then we should heed that paradigm.
I don't claim to know all of the implications of any verse. Just telling you some of it's implications which are clear.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
People should befree to follow any legal religion that they like.
I have no requirement to believe that those religions are true.
This should apply to everyone and all religions.
I have no requirement to believe that those religions are true.
This should apply to everyone and all religions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What is the trumpet? Is this the trumpet blast mentioned in the Bible?
Do you mean that everyone will die physically? In other words, do you believe that the physical bodies of everyone will die?
Do you mean that everyone will be raised to life physically? In other words, do you believe that the physical bodies of everyone will come back to life?
Baha'is call this the Day of God, and we believe that God's truth was revealed, but that doesn't mean that everyone will recognize the truth.
I believe that everyone will recognize the truth eventually, but not for a very long time.
We believe that the Day in which we are living (meaning this age) is the Day of God, since God has been exalted by Baha'u'llah.
“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60
“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
So what is the difference between the day of the Mahdi and the day of judgment as in the final day?
Is this what you think will happen on the day of judgment as in the final day?
Do you think that God is going to force people to believe in Him instead of allowing them to choose?
Peoples' deeds will be put on display by God? Who are the Witnesses?
Not aware if it's in the Bible or not. The trumpet is a metaphor for a spiritual reality that God and his forces have. In Quran, Ibrahim (a) is able to raise four dead birds and can call them from mountains. It's unseen and we don't witness everything, but it's a metaphor of some of the power of God and God's chosen forces. I think per Quran every guide of each age, will rally and call the people he was responsible over and he will witness against them as well and will present their book of deeds. A long with that, their body parts will witness what they did and testify to the truth of the caller/witness/leader of theirs.
Yes everyone will physically die. Yes, everyone will be raised to life physically.
This was a problem that disbelievers had back then with Quran and would call it far fetch, but per Quran, it is something that definitely will happen.
The Mahdi (a) will manifest the truth but it won't be the type of day of signs which there is no room for denial. The day of judgment as the final day, is that day where no soul is permitted to mislead or misguide for example, and truth is forced.
People will be forced on the day of judgment, yes.
And in most countries(with one notable area of exception) that is true. Edited to add: The 13 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
All predominantly Muslim countries.
That list I found was for atheism. This is an article for apostasy. Death sentence for apostasy in nearly a dozen countries, report says
Who is God? Where is God? We believe that God is unknowable and we cannot approach Him directly.
“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven”
Bahá’u’lláh
7:53
The day its interpretation comes, those who had previously ignored it will say, “Indeed, the messengers of our Lord came with the truth. Do we have any intercessors who will intercede for us now? Or could we be sent back to behave differently?” They have lost their souls, and what they used to invent has failed them.
89:22
And thy Lord shall come with angels, rank on rank.
Who is ‘thy Lord?
"The day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the world" (Tatfif - 83:6)
"And the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." (Zumar - 39:69)
Who is this ‘Lord’.?
Who is the Lord of the world?
What does the Quran say?
"Those who swear allegiance to thee do but swear allegiance to God."
(Fath - 48:10)
So by the Lord coming and standing before the Lord is referring to another Manifestation of God as allegiance to the Prophets is considered the same as allegiance to God.
So we Baha’is believe that God has sent Baha’u’llah and we get our interpretations from an infallible divine Source not our own selves or scholars. Only God has the true interpretation of the Quran.
First is that the new Manifestation clears up misunderstandings and misconceptions held by the followers of previous religions. Also a way to know this is to read the scriptures of the religions and see if what they are teaching now is in conformity with the original teachings taught by the Founder.
From my own experience. I find it very easy to accept the essence and foundations of all religions as one by clearing away the added man made dogmas and interpretations which were never part of the original teachings in the first place such as ‘Mary mother of God’. That is nowhere in the Bible and did not come from Christ. And many things have been added to religions that were not part of the original teachings.
Apologies then if I missed the mark. Nevertheless salam brother.
I just want to thank everyone for staying on topic and asking very good questions. Religious unity I don’t think is something humanity has ever tried so we could try it and if it doesn’t work then go back to having wars between religions. But I believe the state humanity is in it’s worth trying.
Hi Link. Just came across this from the Bab regarding Seal of the Prophets. So He is agreeing that Muhammad is the last of the Prophets but of the ‘prophetic cycle’ which is the cycle where God made certain prophecies regarding things like justice and peace appearing. Now we are in the cycle of fulfilment when all those prophecies will gradually be fulfilled.
“When God sent forth His Prophet Muhammad, on that day the termination of the prophetic cycle was foreordained in the knowledge of God.”
The Báb