What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

So the answer to both questions is no.

You don’t “accept” (i.e. regard as true) the teachings of all the other major religions in the same way that the adherents of those other major religions “accept” (i.e. regard as true) the teachings of those religions.

And you are unwilling to be honest, forthright, and upfront, as opposed to resorting to equivocations, obfuscations, and casuistry and answer the question actually asked.

That’s unfortunate.
It reflects poorly on your effort to forge a camaraderie among different religions when you can’t manage to turn off that cheap used car salesman schtick of using insincere disingenuous sophistries in attempt to portray fellowship, rather than being honorable and forthright in my opinion.

Thanks for your judgement. It makes me feel just great

 

[Dawnofhope]

I responded the best I could but I am not perfect. Sorry to all. Far from it. I have books like the Vedas and they read just like any Word of God. Then there are groups like the Sufis who Baha’u’llah quotes so often. But I have very often come across Hindu and Hinduism in the Baha’i writings but never Vaisnavism.

I do not doubt for one moment your sincerity and the care and effort you have taken to answer this question and others on this thread to the best of your ability.

It is good to be on a forum such as this with other Baha'is and we all bring something special and unique in our contributions.

I'm not sure you understood the question JustGeorge asked and I was asked by Vinayaka to comment. Like you, I answered the question to the best of my ability.

There are very few references to Hinduism in the Baha’i writings. If we want to learn about Hinduism then we need to hear from Hindus in regards what they have to say about their own religion. There is no need to fit Hinduism into our preconceived ideas.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you call yourself a Hindu and not a Vaishnavite. I’m always get scolded for saying we believe in Hinduism yet you are saying you’re a Hindu but you don’t accept Avatars. ??

Vinayaka is a Saivite Hindu not a Vaishnavite. Shiavism is one of the four main branches of Hinduism. They worship Shiva as their main deity. They don't believe in avatars and Krishna is not part of Vinayaka's sampradaya.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Vinayaka is a Saivite Hindu not a Vaishnavite. Shiavism is one of the four main branches of Hinduism. They worship Shiva as their main deity. They don't believe in avatars and Krishna is not part of Vinayaka's sampradaya.

Yes my mistake. It’s us who follow Krishna. Easy to mix them up. The Baha’i writings just say Hinduism though.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why do you call yourself a Hindu and not a Vaishnavite. I’m always get scolded for saying we believe in Hinduism yet you are saying you’re a Hindu but you don’t accept Avatars. ??

I'm not a Vaishnavite. After 10 years you still don't know that? I use the term 'Hindu' for the benefit of western people who would have no clue what I was talking about if I used the more specific sect, or a Sanatana Dharmic. I'm just too lazy, and don't feel like explaining it every time. Why do you call yourself a Baha'i and not the more general Abrahamic?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm not a Vaishnavite. After 10 years you still don't know that? I use the term 'Hindu' for the benefit of western people who would have no clue what I was talking about if I used the more specific sect, or a Sanatana Dharmic. I'm just too lazy, and don't feel like explaining it every time. Why do you call yourself a Baha'i and not the more general Abrahamic?

I mixed up the terms. We were discussing about why the Baha’is used Hindu instead of Vaishnavite so with that word stuck in my thoughts I forgot to change the term to Shaivite for you. It was just an honest mistake. I‘ve known for years that you don’t accept avatars which means you are not a Vaishnavite. You worship Shiva. I didn’t forget. I just typed in the wrong word.

 

[Link]

I backed everything I said, with Hadithes.
Didnt I quote so many Hadithes that says, Day of Resurrection, Trumpet, Appointed Time are metaphors for the Manifestation of the Qaim? Didnt I quote so many Hadithes as well as verses of the Quran, that says "Dead" is a metaphor for "disbeliever", and alive is a metaphor for "believer"? Didnt I quote Hadithes and verses of the Quran that says, Day of Resurrection comes in 1000 years? Didnt I quote Quran and Bible that, people in the past Ages, were in Fire and some were admitted to Heaven, thus, the idea that in future people physically Resurrect is not correct?
If you cannot accept the Hadithes and Holy Books, and instead want to stick with what most human beings understand, it is upto you. I choose to go with what Prophets and infallible Imams said.

You've shown some hadiths that can be but I think should not be interpreted in the way you suggest. I've also shown hadiths to support my view, for example, I've made thread quoting many hadiths of Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi with no Nabi after him. I've shown others. I've yet to show the many hadiths that support the day of judgment as understood by me. Same with hell and paradise. Same with Angels and Jinn.

You will see you have a few hadiths that maybe interpreted the way you suggest, but not necessarily, while I have grounded myself in the bulk of hadiths which confirm the proper interpretation of Quran.

But it's speaks volumes of how you build your knowledge. You build it on shaky grounds and on what is not clear nor firmly established.

For beliefs, in terms of hadiths, it can't be hadiths in isolation, but must be mutuwatur (so many hadiths about same issue, that it's very doubtful all would've united to make a fabrication).

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Universal House of Justice has instructed us to send you the following reply.

In a letter written on behalf of the beloved Guardian to an individual believer there appears the following statement:

"The nine religions to which you have referred include both the Babi and Bahá'í Dispensations, Bahá'u'lláh being the Ninth Prophet in the series. The other Prophets included are Zoroaster, Krishna, Moses, the Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, the Prophet of the Sabeans whose name is unrecorded, the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh."

It can, therefore, be confidently stated that the teachings of the Faith name Krishna as a Manifestation of God.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

 

[loverofhumanity]

There was a lifetime of Instruction from Baha'u'llah to interpret.

Abdul-Baha was exiled with Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha was the first to recognise the Station of Baha’u’llah ever since he was a young child, always served Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah was the teacher of Abdul-Baha, so Abdul'baha had years of instruction from Baha'u'llah that was not recorded. We do not know what was said on these subjects, it is plausible to conclude they were discussed in the many hours of discussion.

Abdul-Baha likewise instructed Shoghi Effendi, so no Baha'i needs to doubt that their knowledge is from Baha'u'llah and no people knew the Message better than the appointed Exemplar and Guardian.

Regards Tony

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

In the Star of the West quoted by the House of Justice Volume 12 page 227, Abdul-Baha interprets the Tablet of the Branch…

In the Tablet of The Branch He explicitly states: "Whatsoever the Branch says is right, or correct, and every person must obey the Branch with his life, with his heart, with his tongue. Without his will, not a word shall anyone utter." This is an explicit text of the Blessed Beauty. So there is no excuse left for anybody. No soul shall, of himself, speak anything. Whatsoever his (Ab-dul-Baha's) tongue utters, whatsoever his pen records, that is correct; according to the explicit text of BAHA 'ULLAH in the Tablet of The Branch.

 

[Link]

I forgot to mention, there are many hadiths of Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) performing miracles. I want to ask other Bahai members, what's their view on miracles? Did Prophets (a) and Imams (a) perform them or not. @InvestigateTruth tells me they did not and what Quran describes are metaphors.

 

[JustGeorge]

I responded the best I could but I am not perfect. Sorry to all. Far from it. I have books like the Vedas and they read just like any Word of God. Then there are groups like the Sufis who Baha’u’llah quotes so often. But I have very often come across Hindu and Hinduism in the Baha’i writings but never Vaisnavism.

How do you find the Vedas compare to other scriptures? Genuinely curious.

The term ‘Hindu’ is mentioned in the Baha’i writings frequently by Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They never used the term Vaishnavism.

“The distinguished Ṣáḥib, may God graciously aid him, hath written that the Hindus and Zoroastrians do not permit or welcome outsiders who wish to join their ranks. This runneth counter to the purpose underlying the advent of the Messengers of God” (Baha'u'llah)

Christianity and Islam are set up to receive and encourage conversions. It is not so with Hinduism, generally speaking(there are some exceptions). It doesn't mean it can't be done, Hindus just don't believe in proselytizing. Culturally, its assumed folks are content in their religion and they wouldn't dream of trying to take it from them.

The eighth is the religion of the Báb and the remaining seven are: Hinduism, (Shoghi Effendi)

As regards religions….

There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. (Baha’u’llah)

''The number nine, which in itself is the number of perfection, is considered by the Bahá'ís as sacred, because it is symbolic of the perfection of the Bahá'i Revelation which constitutes the ninth in the line of existing religions, the latest and fullest Revelation which mankind has ever known. The eighth is the religion of the Báb and the remaining seven are: Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islám, and the religion of the Sabaeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world but are the only ones still existing. Source: Bahá'i Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Pages 51-52

I didn't think the Sabaeans existed anymore. I could be wrong, though.

There are still a lot of other faiths out there, though small.

Regardless, we are told to love all religions so whether it be Sikh or Jainism or Jehovah’s Witnesses It doesn’t matter.

That's good.

There are very few references to Hinduism in the Baha’i writings. If we want to learn about Hinduism then we need to hear from Hindus in regards what they have to say about their own religion. There is no need to fit Hinduism into our preconceived ideas.

Thank you. This is what I hope for.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I forgot to mention, there are many hadiths of Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) performing miracles. I want to ask other Bahai members, what's their view on miracles? Did Prophets (a) and Imams (a) perform them or not. @InvestigateTruth tells me they did not and what Quran describes are metaphors.

9
- عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن
حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:

من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط
مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.​

Hadith:
Imam Ridha Said:

One who interprets Mutishabihat (Metaphorical) verses of the Quran with Muhkamaat (clear and specified) verses, will be guided towards the Right path. Then he continued saying: in fact in our Hadithes, there are Mutishabihat just as the Mutishabihat of Quran, and there are Muhkamaat just as the Muhkamaat of the Quran, thus you must interpret the Mutishabihat with Muhkamaat. Do not follow the Mutishabihat unless you interpret them with Muhhamaat.

Do you see now?

 

[Link]

9
- عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن
حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:

من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط
مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.​

Hadith:
Imam Ridha Said:

One who interprets Mutishabihat (Metaphorical) verses of the Quran with Muhkamaat (clear and specified) verses, will be guided towards the Right path. Then he continued saying: in fact in our Hadithes, there are Mutishabihat just as the Mutishabihat of Quran, and there are Muhkamaat just as the Muhkamaat of the Quran, thus you must interpret the Mutishabihat with Muhkamaat. Do not follow the Mutishabihat unless you interpret them with Muhhamaat.

Do you see now?

You do the opposite, you make unclear what is clear with unclear, and follow unclear. I agree with the hadith, we can't follow unclearness from neither Quran nor hadiths, but you do it with both. We have to build on what is clear, is what I'm saying. In fact, the Quran is a clear book by many verses, so it doesn't make sense to build on what is unclear, as that would be from Satan and not from God. But we can defeat what is unclear in our heads about Quran, if we stick to what is clear only and clarification will come.

 

[Vinayaka]

It can, therefore, be confidently stated that the teachings of the Faith name Krishna as a Manifestation of God.

Indeed it did, hence claiming that the Hindus got it wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I forgot to mention, there are many hadiths of Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) performing miracles. I want to ask other Bahai members, what's their view on miracles? Did Prophets (a) and Imams (a) perform them or not. @InvestigateTruth tells me they did not and what Quran describes are metaphors.

Of course these pure souls are capable of miracles but what is a true miracle in the eyes of God? The greatest miracle to me was the transformation of the Arabs into a great nation and the turning of the people towards God. Physical miracles could only have been proof for those who were present.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Indeed it did, hence claiming that the Hindus got it wrong.

The Vaishnavites believe In avatars and all it is is Baha’i belief but others may disagree. Same with Islam. The Baha’i Faith recognises the Imams as the rightful Successors of Muhammad.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Vaishnavites believe In avatars and all it is is Baha’i belief but others may disagree. Same with Islam. The Baha’i Faith recognises the Imams as the rightful Successors of Muhammad.

Ask Vaishnava Hindus if Krishna is a 'manifestation', and a previous one to Baha'u'llah or Muhammad, and stop projecting your ideas onto people whom you know nothing about. It's tiring. Ask Muslims if Muhammad was the manifestation previous to Baha'u'llah. And them, when you ask these questions, please listen to their answers. Go to an Islam forum, or a Hindu forum and ask.

 

[Link]

Of course these pure souls are capable of miracles but what is a true miracle in the eyes of God? The greatest miracle to me was the transformation of the Arabs into a great nation and the turning of the people towards God. Physical miracles could only have been proof for those who were present.

So he did physical miracles to those present?

 

[Link]

Ask Vaishnava Hindus if Krishna is a 'manifestation', and a previous one to Baha'u'llah or Muhammad, and stop projecting your ideas onto people whom you know nothing about. It's tiring. Ask Muslims if Muhammad was the manifestation previous to Baha'u'llah. And them, when you ask these questions, please listen to their answers. Go to an Islam forum, or a Hindu forum and ask.

Salam

Mohammad (s) and Imams (a) are bahal alimeen (the radiance of the worlds) and light of God.

However, from what I understand, Bahais explain it in a way that Mohammad (s) is a manifestation but Ali (a) is not but under his manifestation. Something like that. It's not totally far fetch idea and not totally off course but is also not true from many angles.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How do you find the Vedas compare to other scriptures? Genuinely curious.

Christianity and Islam are set up to receive and encourage conversions. It is not so with Hinduism, generally speaking(there are some exceptions). It doesn't mean it can't be done, Hindus just don't believe in proselytizing. Culturally, its assumed folks are content in their religion and they wouldn't dream of trying to take it from them.

I didn't think the Sabaeans existed anymore. I could be wrong, though.

There are still a lot of other faiths out there, though small.

That's good.


Thank you. This is what I hope for.

Thanks for your comments. One of my very favourite verses I remember all my life since I heard it recited in our Temple in Sydney Rig Veda Book 2 Hymn 28 : 5

Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.

So from that one small verse alone it had as much effect on me as all the other scriptures including my own.

It became part of my soul that my song be fully sung before my time is up.