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What If You're Wrong

As an atheist, do you think Richard Dawkins answered the question in a satisfying way?


  • Total voters
    17

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
yeah and what then?
Then he's given a sufficient answer to the question, no? He's said he could be wrong. He strongly implied he didn't think he was (which makes him like just about everyone else on that point) but he allowed it was possible.
At univerisity (I think God I had the opportunity to be there) I occasionally was invited by X to Y's party. Many other people were.
But still, if I broke a glass I would go to Y and not to X.
And if the party was great I would go to Y, too, for the sake of praising it. Not to X. Maybe I would thank both of them.
You're assuming the existence of Y. Having made reasonably thorough enquiries, I can't even find a definition of Y appropriate to a real being, one with objective existence.

So we're on different pages.

Perhaps that's all we need say.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Interestingly this is hard for people to accept but for those that understand it is the only way for life to progress and allow others to live. It took me a long time to finally understand this but occurred when I felt an intimate connection with then natural world recognizing that life dies so that life lives.

What is "life?"
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, like you and everyone else, i am comprised of dead people and dead things

I can't decide whether to make a Frankenstein joke or a Sixth Sense joke, so I'll forego the funny.

So if I am comprise solely of dead people and dead things, how is it that I'm alive?
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Then he's given a sufficient answer to the question, no?
no, he did not say what happens then, in his opinion.
As @viole says he did address Pascal's wager.
But still he didn't answer what if he was wrong. Even if this question is the same for anyone and the Christian inquirer didn't have any positional advantage, as Viole puts it, he still didn't answer it.

To give an example:
- What happens if you can't go shopping tonight, Richard?
- well what happens if you don't go shopping tomorrow? and well, what happens if Peter doesn't go swimming this week?


It sounds genious. At the same time, it just doesn't answer it.
He could have said:

- if I don't go shopping tonight, I don't make me a potatoe soup. Because I don't have the potatoes.
100 points. That would have answered the question indeed.

@viole, there is evidence, I think.
What do you think of this one:
seascape-2895017_1920.jpg https://pixabay.com/photos/seascape-lake-nature-bavaria-2895017/

It's entirely beautiful, from the region, I live in.
For me this points to a loving creator God.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I can't decide whether to make a Frankenstein joke or a Sixth Sense joke, so I'll forego the funny.

So if I am comprise solely of dead people and dead things, how is it that I'm alive?


The first law of thermodynamics tells you what you are made of. How that matter/energy reacts when brought together gives you life
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Did i say that? Or anything like that?

No, but you didn't really answer my question, either. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The body is a closed system of energy, as is a close saucepan.

I asked you how I'm alive, and you threw a thermodynamic law at me to tell me how matter has energy. In essence, you told me that having energy means one is alive. I gave you an example of something that has energy that isn't.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, but you didn't really answer my question, either. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The body is a closed system of energy, as is a close saucepan.

I asked you how I'm alive, and you threw a thermodynamic law at me to tell me how matter has energy. In essence, you told me that having energy means one is alive. I gave you an example of something that has energy that isn't.


No the body is not a closed system, example, skin sheds constantly, nutrients are absorbed and skin is made. Cells are constantly dying and new cells replace them. Your body is essentially replaced every 7 years (give or take)

If it were a closed system life could not exist.

I stated

How that matter/energy reacts when brought together gives you life

Thats as good as i have got. I am not sure neuroscience can give much more
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
no, he did not say what happens then, in his opinion.
As @viole says he did address Pascal's wager.
But still he didn't answer what if he was wrong. Even if this question is the same for anyone and the Christian inquirer didn't have any positional advantage, as Viole puts it, he still didn't answer it.

To give an example:
- What happens if you can't go shopping tonight, Richard?
- well what happens if you don't go shopping tomorrow? and well, what happens if Peter doesn't go swimming this week?


It sounds genious. At the same time, it just doesn't answer it.
He could have said:

- if I don't go shopping tonight, I don't make me a potatoe soup. Because I don't have the potatoes.
100 points. That would have answered the question indeed.

@viole, there is evidence, I think.
What do you think of this one:
View attachment 46051 https://pixabay.com/photos/seascape-lake-nature-bavaria-2895017/

It's entirely beautiful, from the region, I live in.
For me this points to a loving creator God.

well, looks like God loves Bavaria. He has point, since I like that, too. I am also a big fan of beer, which helps.

However, By the same token we should conclude that He does not love the third world, and all those kids starving or become blind because of parasites eating their eyes from the inside out.

For, if we praise God for the good, then intellectual honesty would demand we damn Him for the bad. Unless we artificially create a system where he can only, tautologically, win. But of course, that system cannot be used to show how good god is to outsiders, but it is only useful to make already believers happy.

ciao

- viole
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No the body is not a closed system, example, skin sheds constantly, nutrients are absorbed and skin is made. Cells are constantly dying and new cells replace them. Your body is essentially replaced every 7 years (give or take)
It's even more "open system" than that.
Just look all the things going in & out second
by second & day by day...breathing & eating.
(I'll spare you further comings & goings.)
So there's no thermodynamic problem at all.

Closed systems are typically something invoked when
students study thermodynamics. )Seldom do we
encounter them in nature.) But they're a good place
to start in understanding systems, & then moving on
to open system performance, eg, heat engines.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, but you didn't really answer my question, either. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The body is a closed system of energy, as is a close saucepan.

I asked you how I'm alive, and you threw a thermodynamic law at me to tell me how matter has energy. In essence, you told me that having energy means one is alive. I gave you an example of something that has energy that isn't.
There are few things less closed than a saucepan.
Heat entering from underneath.
Fluid evaporated from contents on top.
It's an open system.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's even more "open system" than that.
Just look all the things going in & out second
by second & day by day...breathing & eating.
(I'll spare you further comings & goings.)
So there's no thermodynamic problem at all.

On a similar note, after hubby returned to his exercise routine following his radiotherapy and all those cancer cells were killed he said "i feel like a new man"

My quick reply was "so do i".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
On a similar note, after hubby returned to his exercise routine following his radiotherapy and all those cancer cells were killed he said "i feel like a new man"

My quick reply was "so do i".
And all along I thought you were a girlie.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
no, he did not say what happens then, in his opinion.
As @viole says he did address Pascal's wager.
But still he didn't answer what if he was wrong. Even if this question is the same for anyone and the Christian inquirer didn't have any positional advantage, as Viole puts it, he still didn't answer it.
I don't see any succinct answer to the question ─ it's far too general. There are so many ways in which an atheist could be wrong ─ one for each god, for a start.

My own view is somewhat different. It seems to me I can't be an atheist if I don't know what a real god is, since the example of imaginary gods is trivial. And despite my constant asking, I don't even know a definition of 'god' appropriate to a real god, such that if I found a real candidate, i could determine if [it] were God, or a god, or not.

Indeed, I can't even find a definition of 'godness', the quality a real god would have that a superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time and so on would lack. And who'd want to worship just a superscientist?

But Dawkins may know what I don't, so his answer is sufficient.
 
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