What is a female??

[Kfox]

I don't have a uterus, I have a higher than 25 (by a large margin) testosterone level, I have neither testes nor ovaries, the brain structure of men vs women is largely a myth derived from size difference (though there are inconsistent but existing other brain differences), I don't produce eggs. And there are more women with these abnormalities (they are not deformities, any more than blue eyes are) than there are people with red hair. It's not particularly rare.

So do you have a prostate? Or a Testosterone level closer to 1,000? Are you a biological male?

Fashion is cultural and sometimes social but it isn't psychological.

Are you gonna tell me the psychological state of a person from hundreds of years ago, who had no problem with slavery, or burning witches at the stake had the same mental and psychological state of a typical person of today? Social, cultural, and psychological states of people of society do change over time.

And yes, none of those are immutable and neither is by what criteria we look at someone and determine woman. The fact of the matter is you've said 'her' and 'she' to I'm guessing hundreds of trans women without knowing it because in day to day life nobody actually associates sex with gender in any meaningful way.

I would say anybody who is unaware that until recently gender has always been associated with sex in a very meaningful way, has not been paying attention

So yes, in that case womanhood is part aesthetic. But it's also part sociological and psychological.

Also no biologist worth their salt conflates sex and gender. Because gender in a psychological sense is also biology. This idea that trans women are not biological women and trans men are not biological men is way oversimplifying of what biology is and includes.

Are you suggesting that most of the biological males who have brain functions that closer align with biological females (and visa versa) end up transgender?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So do you have a prostate? Or a Testosterone level closer to 1,000? Are you a biological male?

No, yes, no. I was assigned female at birth and identify as a woman, despite not having most of the functions people consider typical of females because as it turns out womanhood has very little to do with that.

Are you gonna tell me the psychological state of a person from hundreds of years ago, who had no problem with slavery, or burning witches at the stake had the same mental and psychological state of a typical person of today? Social, cultural, and psychological states of people of society do change over time.

The psychological processes behind tribalism hasn't changed, no. We've just picked different in and out groups since then. (Well, somewhat, slavery, racism, religious bigotry including religiously motivated crime still very much exists.)

I would say anybody who is unaware that until recently gender has always been associated with sex in a very meaningful way, has not been paying attention

Until very recently we also thought tongues were divided into taste regions. Turns out we were wrong about that, too.

Are you suggesting that most of the biological males who have brain functions that closer align with biological females (and visa versa) end up transgender?

I'm not aware of any studies to that effect. But there have been studies showing that the very small differences between male and female brains observed in people are closer reflections of their gender than their sex. Meaning that transgender people who have these what were thought to be sex segregated brains turns out to be gender segregated.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity

www.scientificamerican.com

MRI scans suggest transgender people’s brains resemble their identified gender: study - National | Globalnews.ca

The brains of transgender people who identify as men resemble biologically male brains in some ways and vice versa, research suggests.

globalnews.ca

 

[Kfox]

Until very recently we also thought tongues were divided into taste regions. Turns out we were wrong about that, too.

My point is, until recently gender has always been related to biological sex.

I'm not aware of any studies to that effect. But there have been studies showing that the very small differences between male and female brains observed in people are closer reflections of their gender than their sex. Meaning that transgender people who have these what were thought to be sex segregated brains turns out to be gender segregated.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity

www.scientificamerican.com

MRI scans suggest transgender people’s brains resemble their identified gender: study - National | Globalnews.ca

The brains of transgender people who identify as men resemble biologically male brains in some ways and vice versa, research suggests.

globalnews.ca

If biological males who have brains functions that align closer to females were turning out to be trans, there would be lots of studies to that effect, and anyone claiming to be transgender would be likely subject to an MRI to confirm their diagnosis. The fact that this is not the case tells me that though there may be some transgenders whose brains align with the opposite biological sex, there are also plenty of Cis males whose brains also align with the opposite biological sex.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My point is, until recently gender has always been related to biological sex.

Not really. Not only has sex been separate from gender in language since time immemorial, but specifically brain body mismatch in transgender has been studied since pre-WW2, and that study was a target of Hitler and book burning of that research is the most famous Nazi book burning picture in history books.

there would be lots of studies to that effect

This is an argument from ignorance. Even a cursory thinking about what that kind of study would entail is a grant nightmare because it involves no control group (definitely cis not in the closet trans) and long term developmental study (to see which come out as trans and which don't). Just because you think something would be a good topic of study doesn't mean it applicably can be.

But what we can do is look at people who are identified as cis and people who are identified as trans and contrast those scans as they have them (to not inflate the cost of the study). And what it shows is that most of the times the markers align with sex at birth EXCEPT people who are trans.

and anyone claiming to be transgender would be likely subject to an MRI to confirm their diagnosis.

No it wouldn't. We don't even do this for autistic people, because specialists and testing are not always conclusive and are expensive, even though we know autistic people have increased neurological activity which can be detected. Diagnosis is still done symptomatically.

there are also plenty of Cis males whose brains also align with the opposite biological sex.

Not evidenced by any study so far.

 

[Kfox]

Not really. Not only has sex been separate from gender in language since time immemorial, but specifically brain body mismatch in transgender has been studied since pre-WW2,

I’m not talking about people claiming a brain body mismatch, I’m talking about this idea that gender and biology have nothing to do with each other is something that has become popular recently.

But what we can do is look at people who are identified as cis and people who are identified as trans and contrast those scans as they have them (to not inflate the cost of the study). And what it shows is that most of the times the markers align with sex at birth EXCEPT people who are trans.

Are you saying trans women have a higher proportion of gray matter in their brains? And trans men have a higher proportion of white matter?

No it wouldn't. We don't even do this for autistic people, because specialists and testing are not always conclusive and are expensive, even though we know autistic people have increased neurological activity which can be detected. Diagnosis is still done symptomatically.

Autistic people do not self diagnose (so they can diagnose autism via other methods); trans people do.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I’m not talking about people claiming a brain body mismatch, I’m talking about this idea that gender and biology have nothing to do with each other is something that has become popular recently.

Nobody, including myself, is saying that gender and biology have nothing to do with biology, because psychology largely is biology. The operations of the brain are biology. The operations of how our hormones, physical and mental security effect our thought processes and behavior is biology.

Are you saying trans women have a higher proportion of gray matter in their brains? And trans men have a higher proportion of white matter?

No, as I said before the gray matter/white matter discrepancy is a misnomer due to an average of sizes. Not something intrinsic to male and female. Cranial cavity size being the biggest determining factor of proportional gray and white matter.
If you want to see what actual brain differentiations have been seen, those links talk about it in great detail.

Autistic people do not self diagnose (so they can diagnose autism via other methods); trans people do.

Autistic people self diagnose all the time, because accessibility to autistic specialists especially for adults is extremely skim here in the US, and there's a number of hang ups in taking women seriously within the autistic specialty since their socialization masks their symptoms differently than men. Lastly, there's a number of targets put on your back with official diagnosis, with some countries not allowing autistic people to immigrate, certain adoption agencies or other organizations screening against autism, etc.

But more importantly, trans is not a diagnosis, gender dysphoria is. You can be trans without gender dysphoria, but to get treatment for it you'd get diagnosed by your providing therapist. And, just like with autism, it's diagnosed by meeting symptom criteria which is given verbally or written by the patient.

 

[Kfox]

Nobody, including myself, is saying that gender and biology have nothing to do with biology, because psychology largely is biology. The operations of the brain are biology. The operations of how our hormones, physical and mental security effect our thought processes and behavior is biology.

Let me put it this way; we never had people claiming men can get pregnant until recently.

Autistic people self diagnose all the time, because accessibility to autistic specialists especially for adults is extremely skim here in the US, and there's a number of hang ups in taking women seriously within the autistic specialty since their socialization masks their symptoms differently than men.

I disagree; autism is usually diagnosed at a young age, and it is not a case where the child informs the parent they are autistic, the parents take him to the doctor and the doctor agrees. It is usually a case where the parents see something different with their child, they take him to the doctor and the doctor says autism. Trans gender does not work that way.

 

[Zwing]

A female is the sex, in organisms that employ sexual reproduction, that produces the ovum gamete.

…and the lack of a Y chromosome.

 

[SomeRandom]

…and the lack of a Y chromosome.

Ehh

XX male syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sorry, couldn’t resist

 

[Zwing]

A third natural sex. I think there are actually three.

I sort of agree, as did the ancient Greeks. There are rare occasions of apparently physical males lacking a Y chromosome, and of apparently physical females having one. This might mean there are actually four sexes(?)

 

[Zwing]

Ehh

XX male syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sorry, couldn’t resist

Yeah, I was getting to that…I’m slow, bear with me. It must be recognized that these are, in fact, anomalies, though.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Let me put it this way; we never had people claiming men can get pregnant until recently.

Trans men have been getting pregnant despite you not hearing about it since time immemorial. It wasn't called trans because the terminology is new, but the concept is not.

I disagree; autism is usually diagnosed at a young age, and it is not a case where the child informs the parent they are autistic, the parents take him to the doctor and the doctor agrees. It is usually a case where the parents see something different with their child, they take him to the doctor and the doctor says autism. Trans gender does not work that way.

Take it from an autistic adult who is very knowledgeable about this subject, autism gets missed in kids all the time, and more and more people are becoming diagnosed as adults because we previously did not understand how socialized masking worked. Autistic adults usually get diagnosed because they get burned out being hypervigilant towards social queues they've never understood but tried their best to mimic, and seek out evaluation after having a breakdown.

Similarly, trans people getting diagnosed with gender dysphoria is not a monolith and happens sometimes in childhood sometimes in adulthood. But like autism it's always based on oral/written evaluations.

 

[Zwing]

Trans men have been getting pregnant despite you not hearing about it since time immemorial.

Is this true? I did not realize that. How so? Can ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus and the rest be implanted into a male?

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah, I was getting to that…I’m slow, bear with me. It must be recognized that these are, in fact, anomalies, though.

True.
Apologies. I was just being snarky

I do think that it’s unwise to treat human biology as this strict black and white thing.
We can certainly generalise it. Putting folks into specific categories and what have you.
But that’s, at best, a simple and rather naive understanding of how biology functions, imo.
Because as much as you categorise a human into some field, someone can always point out some anomaly that counters it. And aren’t those who are born with such anomalies still human beings at the end of the day?
Indeed doesn’t science basically dictate that such anomalies are accounted for in order to be truly reflective of reality?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Is this true? I did not realize that. How so? Can ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus and the rest be implanted into a male?

Trans men are people who were assigned female at birth and transition to male. Sometimes hormonally, sometimes socially, sometimes surgically, sometimes all of the above. But lots of trans men still have ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, et all, and stop hormones and treatment because they get pregnant.

 

[Zwing]

Trans men are people who were assigned female at birth and transition to male.

Oh, I see; that makes the matter more understandable. I’m not so up on the terminology…

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Oh, I see; that makes the matter more understandable. I’m not so up on the terminology…

No worries at all, we are all learning.

 

[Kfox]

Trans men have been getting pregnant despite you not hearing about it since time immemorial. It wasn't called trans because the terminology is new, but the concept is not.

That is not what I said. I said that nobody was claiming MEN can get pregnant. Whatever they were called in the past, the person getting pregnant was never called a man.

Take it from an autistic adult who is very knowledgeable about this subject, autism gets missed in kids all the time, and more and more people are becoming diagnosed as adults because we previously did not understand how socialized masking worked. Autistic adults usually get diagnosed because they get burned out being hypervigilant towards social queues they've never understood but tried their best to mimic, and seek out evaluation after having a breakdown.

Similarly, trans people getting diagnosed with gender dysphoria is not a monolith and happens sometimes in childhood sometimes in adulthood. But like autism it's always based on oral/written evaluations.

It’s still not the same. Today we have children telling their parents they are trans. We don’t have children telling their parents they are autistic.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That is not what I said. I said that nobody was claiming MEN can get pregnant. Whatever they were called in the past, the person getting pregnant was never called a man.

Okay? Even if that were true, which it clearly isn't since trans (then transsexual men or transvestite men were still called men despite becoming pregnant) what was then doesn't dictate what is.

It’s still not the same. Today we have children telling their parents they are trans. We don’t have children telling their parents they are autistic.

Yeah we do. Again, your ideas of how autistic kids and adults get diagnosed seems to be really limited. Lots of autistic kids and adults today get more information about their symptoms from large social media communities, then bring that to their parents and/or to therapists. Who then compare their lived experiences to DSM diagnostic criteria.

But again, even if that were true, what of it? What point is trying to be made here?

 

[SomeRandom]

It’s still not the same. Today we have children telling their parents they are trans. We don’t have children telling their parents they are autistic.

Pretty sure we do.
Like Autism still isn’t that well known among parents.

Also who cares?
What difference does that make?
They used to say the same of things like ADD.
We know more now. More people are found to have it due to our better understanding. This is standard in human history