What is an authentic Christian?

[BilliardsBall]

That seems way too basic and simplistic given the vast disagreements among Christians. I see you repeat a similar thing, and that is that the believer is saved from some fate. But none of you say you are obligated to follow a moral guideline, at least not until I ask. It suggests being a Christian has a selfish priority, and being grateful is secondary. I brought u this whole discussion because a Christian said that Nazis and salve owners were not authentic Christians.

So why am I not seeing believers speak about their obligation as moral and decent people, and willing to follow the example and teachings of Jesus?

Simple. Biblically speaking:

Salvation (from Hell) = Trust Jesus

Sanctification (growing like the Savior, becoming better, more loving) = hard work, adhering to moral codes, making an effort, the ongoing regeneration by the Holy Spirit

To be saved one must be PERFECT morally, not "good". Only perfect people can live--logically speaking--in a heavenly utopia without marring it. Salvation is trusting Jesus to PERFECT us. All other world religions have religious and moral codes to make us a bit better--some of the time--there is not a person on Earth who never sins.

GREAT questions.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Explain what "born again" means, and how it is a real and authentic experience, and not some illusion created in a human mind.

And if you claim a personal relationship to God, what exactly are you relating to as a material and moral being?

And explain your test to make sure you have an authentic relationship with a God and isn't imagined.

Certainly you tested this, right? I hoe you didn't hear others make a claim of a "personal relationship" with God and you mimic their claims.

I am now mature in age and was baptised in the Spirit over 40 years ago.

To understand the meaning of love one must experience it. There are signposts throughout the Bible that point us to Christ, but until you experience baptism in the Spirit, as Jesus' disciples did at Pentecost, all attempts to provide a full explanation of the experience fall short of the reality.

The fruits of the Spirit give some indication as to the impact that the Holy Spirit has upon the soul. The fruits are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperence. It is these fruits that mark out a person who walks by the Spirit of God.

In opposition to the fruits of the Spirit, you have the works of the flesh. These are seen in the fulfilling of the lust of the flesh; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revellings, and the like. [ See Galatians 5]

I noticed an immediate change in my life when l accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I believe a change in Spirit took place, and l sensed the divine love that was showered upon me. I did not deserve this love, but God was merciful towards me nonetheless.

A personal relationship with the Lord is all about love. He loved me first, and l responded with faith (trust). How do l know this? Because, as l read the words of the Gospels, l found that Jesus died for me, and the truth of his words and actions appealed to my heart.

I can, of course, intellectualise the case for Christ, and provide a rational theology that takes account of the prophecy of the whole of scripture, but the journey began with a powerful appeal to my heart.

I believe this appeal comes from the Holy Spirit. Even before my own conversion, the Holy Spirit was active in convicting me of sin.

 

[InChrist]

On another debate a member who is a Christian dismissed some Christians, namely those Baptists of the Confederate South and Lutherans and Catholics of Nazi Germany, as "Christians in name only". That's interesting.

This implies and suggests that there are fake Christians, and thus by contrast, authentic Christians. So it got me to wondering if this is a common attitude among Christians, and if so, what is the profile of an "authentic Christian" versus "in name only".

So, do you have this attitude and belief?

If so, what makes an authentic Christian?

Does this smack of judgment?

Jesus knows who are or are not authentic Christians and defines how one becomes one...

”Not everyone who says to Me,‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have wenot prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Matthew 7:21-23


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.
John 3:6-7

 

[F1fan]

Jesus knows who are or are not authentic Christians and defines how one becomes one...

Well Jesus isn't an RF member and in this discussion. I's asking believers what they think. As we see regardless what Jesus knows many believers disagree with each other.

”Not everyone who says to Me,‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have wenot prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Matthew 7:21-23

Do you think you know Jesus? If so, why?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.
John 3:6-7

What does this mean in real life?

 

[F1fan]

I am now mature in age and was baptised in the Spirit over 40 years ago.

To understand the meaning of love one must experience it. There are signposts throughout the Bible that point us to Christ, but until you experience baptism in the Spirit, as Jesus' disciples did at Pentecost, all attempts to provide a full explanation of the experience fall short of the reality.

The fruits of the Spirit give some indication as to the impact that the Holy Spirit has upon the soul. The fruits are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperence. It is these fruits that mark out a person who walks by the Spirit of God.

In opposition to the fruits of the Spirit, you have the works of the flesh. These are seen in the fulfilling of the lust of the flesh; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revellings, and the like. [ See Galatians 5]

This is all pretty abstract ideas. These could be interpreted in many ways, some good and some bad. Without specific examples this means nothing as an explanation.

I noticed an immediate change in my life when l accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I believe a change in Spirit took place, and l sensed the divine love that was showered upon me. I did not deserve this love, but God was merciful towards me nonetheless.

Could this have just been self-caused excitement and emotional fervor? The brain injects hormones into our brains when we get excited. We feel euphoria.

A personal relationship with the Lord is all about love. He loved me first, and l responded with faith (trust). How do l know this? Because, as l read the words of the Gospels, l found that Jesus died for me, and the truth of his words and actions appealed to my heart.

Atheists feel love too, so I don't see your experience as being tied to your religion. Could it be you just feel what everyone else does but you attribute it to your religion?

I can, of course, intellectualise the case for Christ, and provide a rational theology that takes account of the prophecy of the whole of scripture, but the journey began with a powerful appeal to my heart.

I believe this appeal comes from the Holy Spirit. Even before my own conversion, the Holy Spirit was active in convicting me of sin.

What you describe doesn't sound like anything other people can feel or experience. So I don't see anything that suggests your Christian experience isn't invented in your mind after being exposed to these ideas by others.

 

[F1fan]

Simple. Biblically speaking:

Salvation (from Hell) = Trust Jesus

I've read a number of you Christians say "trust Jesus" and it strikes me an as odd thing to say. We can trust anything, but this does not assure it will happen. We can trust that the trains will run on time, and then some aren't on time. You can trust your wife or girlfriend but she cheats on you. So trust is a word that suggests something, but it doesn't assure it. So there is some doubt built in to "trust Jesus". Christianity is a religion that has a lot of loopholes and exceptions.

So there is either salvation or it's unsure. If you mis sodium and chloride we know you get table salt, there is no trusting chemistry, it happens.

Sanctification (growing like the Savior, becoming better, more loving) = hard work, adhering to moral codes, making an effort, the ongoing regeneration by the Holy Spirit

Sounds like an ongoing process, not a goal.

To be saved one must be PERFECT morally, not "good". Only perfect people can live--logically speaking--in a heavenly utopia without marring it. Salvation is trusting Jesus to PERFECT us. All other world religions have religious and moral codes to make us a bit better--some of the time--there is not a person on Earth who never sins.

So heaven is empty and hell is bursting at the seams.

Since sinners aren't perfect, and to get into heaven you have to be Perfect, and as you assert everyone sins, then no one can get into heaven.

GREAT questions.

Thanks.

 

[InChrist]

Well Jesus isn't an RF member and in this discussion. I's asking believers what they think. As we see regardless what Jesus knows many believers disagree with each other.
life?

Yoy may be asking RF members, which is fine, we can make up and number of ideas, but if Jesus Christ is the One who Christians claim to follow or belong to, then I think it’s Christ Alone who determines the criteria or definition of an authentic Christian.

Do you think you know Jesus? If so, why?


What does this mean in real life?

I do know Jesus because as John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace said, “I was blind, but now I see”. Paul had the same experience when he encountered the risen, living Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus. All born again believers around the world do. I did and when it happened I was changed, my worldview and whole perspective on life changed. I was freed of attitudes of unforgiveness, judgmentalism, hatred, as well as fearfulness and instantly filled with forgiveness and peace. I actually was blind to reality before Jesus saved me.

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.
John 3:6-7”

I think in real life it means that a person is changed and spiritually transformed where eternal life is imparted through Christ. Everyone is born physically here on earth, but being born again means a second birth or being born from above. I can only explain it so far because it is something you would have to experience yourself to fully comprehend. But in real life it means my life was changed over thirty years ago and continues to be transformed by Christ.

 

[InChrist]

Since sinners aren't perfect, and to get into heaven you have to be Perfect, and as you assert everyone sins, then no one can get into heaven.

The point is Christ is perfect and His perfection is given to a sinner when they repent and trust Him...

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23



Why does Christ’s righteousness need to be imputed to us? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Hockeycowboy]

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,

Exactly! That’s the key…

John 15:14…”You are my friends if you do what I command you.”

And one command is
John 15:12 NIV… “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”

Another command:
Matthew 5:44 NIV…”But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”

Professed Christians have been killing people (and each other) since the inception of Christendom over 1600 yrs ago.

You make the call.

This doesn’t make Christianity wrong; it only makes wrong, those who claim to live by it but don’t.

Especially the leaders of Christendom, the ones who should know better.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

My goodness, all these thoughts about belief!
Jesus cut through all of that…. John 13:34-35, it’s about how we love. And not just our brothers; those who (make themselves) our enemies, too. — Matthew 5:44.

(Oops, I’m repeating myself.)

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is all pretty abstract ideas. These could be interpreted in many ways, some good and some bad. Without specific examples this means nothing as an explanation.


Could this have just been self-caused excitement and emotional fervor? The brain injects hormones into our brains when we get excited. We feel euphoria.


Atheists feel love too, so I don't see your experience as being tied to your religion. Could it be you just feel what everyone else does but you attribute it to your religion?


What you describe doesn't sound like anything other people can feel or experience. So I don't see anything that suggests your Christian experience isn't invented in your mind after being exposed to these ideas by others.

You may consider the love of God to be an abstract idea; well, until you experience the power of this love it will remain abstract!

The evidence that this experience is not purely subjective is found in the the biblical record. The testimony comes from the apostles of Jesus, who gathered together with over 100 fellow disciples in the upper room on the night of Pentecost, fifty days after Jesus' resurrection.

Did all those that heard Peter and the apostles speak about their baptism in the Holy Spirit believe their testimony? No. Even with multiple voices giving testimony to God's outpouring of the Holy Spirit, there were many observers who put the experience down to drunkenness! [ See Acts 2]

Yet, if one looks at how a conversion experience changes a life, one need look no further than Paul. He was 'turned about' in outlook and thinking, so much so that he became the object of a Jewish assassination plot [Acts 23:21].

Both the fruit of love and the supernatural power of God's love are evident in the body of Christ. I believe that the world goes to great lengths to cover up, and explain away, the evidence for these works of God.

 

[1213]

...There have been things you have written in posts that were factually wrong, ...

Like what? And why?

...This is more code talk. Do they even explain what light and dark is, or leave it to people to guess? I see many Christians guessing what the truth is, and disagree with each other. The Bible is so abstract and vague that it doesn't really help believers sort things out, just offers more confusion.

It is interesting if people don't understand what is truth.

One example of truth could be for example: I have not done always the best. Admitting that releases me for example from pretending that I would have done the best always. It also opens the door for forgiveness that sets free from the judgment.

 

[metis]

Exactly! That’s the key…

John 15:14…”You are my friends if you do what I command you.”

And one command is
John 15:12 NIV… “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”

Another command:
Matthew 5:44 NIV…”But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”

Professed Christians have been killing people (and each other) since the inception of Christendom over 1600 yrs ago.

You make the call.

This doesn’t make Christianity wrong; it only makes wrong, those who claim to live by it but don’t.

Especially the leaders of Christendom, the ones who should know better.

Well said, imo. Except it is not which building one may walk into to worship but whether we at least attempt to live in Jesus' command for us to love God and love one another-- period. All the rest is commentary.

 

[F1fan]

You may consider the love of God to be an abstract idea; well, until you experience the power of this love it will remain abstract!

Nothing suggests any god exists, nor loves anyone. You describe an idealistic, you offer no evidence. When I hear believers talk about their religious experiences I recognize these are similar to any human experiencing something, whether a real experience or imagined. So sorry, I have no reason to take your word for it.

But the question is why don't non-believers experience what you claim is happening to you? Thus far it seems to be suggested that a person has to believe to experience God's love. Why not everyone? That is conditional love. And what is God's love of some believers when God does nothing to save their child dying from some disease? So even though God's love is claimed I don't see any real world effects of God loving anyone, especially children who deserve the most love from anyone, right?

So this explains why I am unconvinced that God's love is anything more than an abstract idea that believers hear about from others, and then thinks happens to them.

The evidence that this experience is not purely subjective is found in the the biblical record. The testimony comes from the apostles of Jesus, who gathered together with over 100 fellow disciples in the upper room on the night of Pentecost, fifty days after Jesus' resurrection.

Did all those that heard Peter and the apostles speak about their baptism in the Holy Spirit believe their testimony? No. Even with multiple voices giving testimony to God's outpouring of the Holy Spirit, there were many observers who put the experience down to drunkenness! [ See Acts 2]

Yet, if one looks at how a conversion experience changes a life, one need look no further than Paul. He was 'turned about' in outlook and thinking, so much so that he became the object of a Jewish assassination plot [Acts 23:21].

Both the fruit of love and the supernatural power of God's love are evident in the body of Christ. I believe that the world goes to great lengths to cover up, and explain away, the evidence for these works of God.

None of this is compelling evidence, or impressive to a rational mind that requires extraordinary evidence for these extraordinary claims. Notice Hindus don't claim this. Muslims don't claim this. Other religions don't claim these things either, and this suggests there is no spiritual magic at play, but a set of religious ideas that Christians adopt and employ for their personal meaning.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've read a number of you Christians say "trust Jesus" and it strikes me an as odd thing to say. We can trust anything, but this does not assure it will happen. We can trust that the trains will run on time, and then some aren't on time. You can trust your wife or girlfriend but she cheats on you. So trust is a word that suggests something, but it doesn't assure it. So there is some doubt built in to "trust Jesus". Christianity is a religion that has a lot of loopholes and exceptions.

So there is either salvation or it's unsure. If you mis sodium and chloride we know you get table salt, there is no trusting chemistry, it happens.


Sounds like an ongoing process, not a goal.


So heaven is empty and hell is bursting at the seams.

Since sinners aren't perfect, and to get into heaven you have to be Perfect, and as you assert everyone sins, then no one can get into heaven.


Thanks.

Trust in the Bible, in over 150 verses is a one-time act, for example "Jesus I cannot perfect myself, I trust you to save me now and perfect me when I meet you." That's salvation. When I transfer my trust from me to Jesus I get a free gift of salvation (Romans 6) which is also an irrevocable gift (Romans 8). Good news for us!

Sanctification, getting a little bit better here and there, is an ongoing process, yes. Perfect sanctification IS a goal--when we meet Jesus at the rapture.

 

[F1fan]

The point is Christ is perfect and His perfection is given to a sinner when they repent and trust Him...

How does this make any sense? If a Christian is a sinner he is still a sinner, and not perfect. It means little that Christ's perfection is given.

I started this thread because a Christian claimed that some Christians are not authentic, and these were specifically Christians who were Nazis and slave owners. So how does a Christian Nazi live with the gift of Christ's perfection and it mean anything? To my thinking what you are saying is little more than a label, and a Christian has the label whether a good person or a serial murderer. A person's acts have to bear some weight in their righteousness, right?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

This comes from the Adam and Eve myth in the Bible, so a person needs to assume that story is true, which it isn't. Do you think all Christians go to heaven even if they were Nazis who committed genocide? Explain.

Why does Christ’s righteousness need to be imputed to us? | GotQuestions.org

I find the answer in this link quite shallow and incomplete. For example it starts out saying:

We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no righteousness of our own. We are sinners by nature, and we cannot make ourselves righteous—we cannot place ourselves in right standing with God. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need His holiness before God credited to our account.​

OK, so they claim we humans don't have our own righteousness. But we see many atheists act righteously. We see many Christians act with cruelty and contrary to what Jesus taught. So obviously there is no blanket righteousness that Christians get automatically, it takes work. And this link says nothing about what righteousness is, nor what a believer needs to do to have it. It is all quite abstract and dogmatic. It implies that if you believe these concepts, you are automatically righteous. Do you think you are righteous? Do you have to work to be righteous? If not, could this be why we see so many Christians act in unrighteous ways?

 

[F1fan]

Trust in the Bible, in over 150 verses is a one-time act, for example "Jesus I cannot perfect myself, I trust you to save me now and perfect me when I meet you." That's salvation. When I transfer my trust from me to Jesus I get a free gift of salvation (Romans 6) which is also an irrevocable gift (Romans 8). Good news for us!

So murderers get this gift? And good, moral non-believers do not?

Sanctification, getting a little bit better here and there, is an ongoing process, yes. Perfect sanctification IS a goal--when we meet Jesus at the rapture.

Does this require work on your part? If so, describe this work. If not, then how do you deserve any gift?

 

[F1fan]

Like what? And why?

Conservative Christians have a habit of posting untrue and judgmental things that are contrary to what Jesus taught about this behavior. Here is a comment you posted:

Monkeypox seems to be the latest reason to think the homosexual act is not reasonable, nor good for persons health.ress a negative and unloving attitude desMonkeypox seems to be the latest reason to think the homosexual act is not reasonable, nor good for persons health.​

This isn't accurate. There is nothing wrong about being homosexual nor having homosexual relationships. You are repeating far right wing beliefs that have nothing to do with what Jesus taught. This is a public health issue, period. You are using this disease as an excuse to attack gays, and this is cruel, immoral, and un-Christian. And simply false.

It is interesting if people don't understand what is truth.

And you are not exempt, but you don't seem able or willing to self-examine your own inability in this, namely your prejudice against gays, as noted above. If you claim to be Christian, and have some sort of advantage as a result, why are you having such extreme prejudice? Most atheists have no such prejudice, so do you ever ponder how your social/political beliefs are less moral and truthful than what atheists think, and also contrary to what Jesus taught?

One example of truth could be for example: I have not done always the best. Admitting that releases me for example from pretending that I would have done the best always. It also opens the door for forgiveness that sets free from the judgment.

Well this is a good sign. Do you think it is your best to express prejudice against gays? If you can't move past your prejudice, what does that tell non-believers about the power of Jesus and God's love in your life? Not very much.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In the responses thus far the emphasis has been the self being saved, and nothing about how they are inspired to be a better human, at least not without asking. I'm struck by the sense of entitlement and selfishness in these responses.

The self serving arrogance is partly why I no longer subscribe to Abrahamic religions.

 

[Muffled]

On another debate a member who is a Christian dismissed some Christians, namely those Baptists of the Confederate South and Lutherans and Catholics of Nazi Germany, as "Christians in name only". That's interesting.

This implies and suggests that there are fake Christians, and thus by contrast, authentic Christians. So it got me to wondering if this is a common attitude among Christians, and if so, what is the profile of an "authentic Christian" versus "in name only".

So, do you have this attitude and belief?

Yes.

If so, what makes an authentic Christian?

Receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior

Does this smack of judgment?

I believe it is God's judgment.