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What is AOC's REAL Green New Deal

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm down with most of this, tbh, but I'd also add there is nothing stopping indiviudals from taking control of it. You can solar up your home, or wind turbine it. You can choose cleaner or electric vehicles, etc. This doesn't need to be enforced, if you ask me. Gotta move rural? Do it, but stop blaming everyone else, lol.
The problem I see is that individuals exercise control to cause the status quo...
- They elect leaders who make these laws & incentives/disincentives.
- They don't want apartment buildings or unsightly solar panels or windmills in their neighborhood.
- They snitch on neighbors who do work without permits.
- They want cheap gas, & would rather see someone else taxed to pay for things.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I see a lot of "do this" but no "this is how it can be done".
OAC is a cheerleader.
Someone else must do the heavy lifting.

I invented a campaign slogan for her 2024 presidential campaign.....
"Make America Venezuela Again"
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
AOC proposes the start of a plan and the complaints are "why has she not finished with a formal, detailed plan yet" from the right. But of course Trump is the master of doing that and it's perfectly OK when he does it.



Good, well paying jobs is spartan? Because that's one of her points. Bringing back manufacturing jobs is spartan? Because that's one of her points. Why not read what she proposed before you attack it.



That is right on the edge of being solved. Let me highlight something you ignored or did not read in the proposal that is there more than once as much as technologically feasible



I decide to remodel my home for example. I have some ideas about what should happen. At this point you complain that there's not a single well thought out etc plan. I tell you that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in quite a while since I've just started developing a plan and have laid out a philosophy and road map to develop "well thought out, realistic and practical plan".

Let me quote what is in the resolution: a Green New Deal must be developed


Sometimes I wonder if you even read what you write... Trump's plans seen to be working; we have probably the best economy with the lowest unemployment in over fifty years coupled with the return of thousand of good jobs; and when you declare that you're going to remodel your house the folks at Home Depot are going to ask you for a little more information before the can show you how it can be done. But, of course, none of this fits into your world view so--Tag, you're it.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
OAC is a cheerleader.
Someone else must do the heavy lifting.

I invented a campaign slogan for her 2024 presidential campaign.....
"Make America Venezuela Again"


Oh no you din't! Now you've given them a rallying cry...and a bumper sticker. BTW, I have been looking at solar and other alternative power sources since 1974 ( I even had a copy of the Whole Earth Catalogue, in case you're wondering). If these strategies were even the least bit financially and/or physically viable, there would be a solar panel salesman (or woman) on every corner.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Oh no you din't! Now you've given them a rallying cry...and a bumper sticker. BTW, I have been looking at solar and other alternative power sources since 1974 ( I even had a copy of the Whole Earth Catalogue, in case you're wondering). If these strategies were even the least bit financially and/or physically viable, there would be a solar panel salesman (or woman) on every corner.
Green energy faces many government imposed disincentives.
Put up solar panels....even if you can get permission, you pay
permit fees, & then higher property taxes every year.
Yet our gasoline taxes can't even cover the cost of maintaining
the roads. That is a subsidy for burning fossil fuels.
OAC & many on the left appear to be interested in only government
programs financed by increased taxes on the wealthy.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'll shift the minute someone presents to me a concise argument that makes sense in favor of such radical diversions from our present course. In fact, I'll promise that will occur INSTANTLY if such information reaches my awareness. The "popular" data is on your side, mostly from leftist mouthpieces -- the detail information completely refutes climate change other than what has normally occurred before. The Earth's climate is always changing -- it's been warmer and colder than it is now. So yeah, I don't buy it -- because there's nothing to buy. The Sun has far more affect on this scenario than _anything_ we're doing here on earth.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that climate change is largely NOT man-made. Who cares? The world's glaciers and ice caps are melting, and that's gonna screw a lot of things up. We should do what we can to slow or halt such melting, EVEN IF IT'S NOT OUR FAULT.

As for the "popular" data, really? NOAA is a leftist mouthpiece?

However, I know a lot about the eco-power stuff just because it's one of my interests. I love sailboats, the idea of possibly supplementing a home with solar, and so on. I can't justify it on any scale outside of the "boat" application, and that's only because the power demands in that case are so low. A solar farm large enough to power the 1500kw/h a day my home would need is larger than the land I have the house on. If it doesn't work at that scale, it doesn't work at _any_ scale except for the low-power application unless you literally want to double the urban sprawl. :D Large cities just wouldn't have the space, it'd be impossible.

I think you meant 1.5kw?

What we've seen over and over and over again is that when we focus on a technology we improve it. Renewables are no different. Solar panels have steadily gotten more efficient and cheaper. Windmills are getting more efficient and smaller. Harvesting energy from tides is making strides. How about fusion? How quickly could we accelerate harnessing fusion is we put hundreds of billions of dollars into R&D for it?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well, you'd also need to make the plane much larger to carry all those batteries. It'd make the C-5 Galaxy aircraft the military use look like a baby. Oh yeah, and extend the runways by like double and mow down those houses. :D People just don't know what they're asking for sometimes.

@BSM1 This entire exchange between you two is of course based on a false dilemma.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm down with most of this, tbh, but I'd also add there is nothing stopping indiviudals from taking control of it. You can solar up your home, or wind turbine it. You can choose cleaner or electric vehicles, etc. This doesn't need to be enforced, if you ask me. Gotta move rural? Do it, but stop blaming everyone else, lol.

And DC can stop subsidizing Big Oil to the tune of billions, and use that money to accelerate cleaner energy.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The problem I see is that individuals exercise control to cause the status quo...
- They elect leaders who make these laws & incentives/disincentives.
- They don't want apartment buildings or unsightly solar panels or windmills in their neighborhood.
- They snitch on neighbors who do work without permits.
- They want cheap gas, & would rather see someone else taxed to pay for things.

I understand fully what you're saying, the dynamics of urban/suburbia aren't conductive to the exercise. Right now, the biggest thing you can do to make some of this happen is move to an unincorporated / rural area. But, you don't have to be so out in the sticks that you can't drive a few minutes to the main areas to get what you need. :D
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I understand fully what you're saying, the dynamics of urban/suburbia aren't conductive to the exercise. Right now, the biggest thing you can do to make some of this happen is move to an unincorporated / rural area. But, you don't have to be so out in the sticks that you can't drive a few minutes to the main areas to get what you need. :D
Alas, we have city snitches moving out to the country now.
I had to wait about a decade for one of them to move away
before I could finish an addition to one building.
Stinking zoning laws & building permits.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
so you admit to breaking the law on a public forum??
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
so you admit to breaking the law on a public forum??
Multiple times.
Remember that I committed a felony by refusing my draft physical?
That crime was my biggie.

I'll leave it to you flag waving, pledge saying, goodie 2 shoes,
blind patriots to obey every single law no matter how immoral.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I see a lot of "do this" but no "this is how it can be done".
Right, I can see why you're cautious. Not well planned with clear pathways forwards like "We'll build a wall and Mexico will pay for it", "we'll stop crime in Chicago in a week", or "we'll get North Korea to abandon nuclear weapons"
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Right, I can see why you're cautious. Not well planned with clear pathways forwards like "We'll build a wall and Mexico will pay for it", "we'll stop crime in Chicago in a week", or "we'll get North Korea to abandon nuclear weapons"
As the old saying goes "It isn't over until it's over".
However this so-called "real-green-new-deal" is a threat to the way of life in this country. What you are referring to above doesn't come a RCH to the disaster that this program does.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
As the old saying goes "It isn't over until it's over".
However this so-called "real-green-new-deal" is a threat to the way of life in this country. What you are referring to above doesn't come a RCH to the disaster that this program does.
Double standard noted.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Green New Deal is nothing more than a green no-deal. It's a useless, unrealistic dog-whistle to the 12-18-year-old group and others of the same intellectual class.

To begin with, the entire GND effort is premised on the proposition that "global temperatures must be kept below 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels to avoid the most severe impacts of a changing climate, which will require -- (A) global reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from human sources of 40 to 60 percent from 2010 levels by 2030; and (B) net-zero emissions by 2050".

The first problem with this premise is that two studies published in Nature, conducted back before the US pulled out of the Paris Agreement, found that no developed nation is on course to achieve its GHG emissions goals so as to prevent global warming of 2° C by the end of the century. See:
Prove Paris was more than paper promises
and
Paris Agreement climate proposals need a boost to keep warming well below 2 °C

Thus, at least insofar as reductions in GHG emissions are concerned, the GND proposal is simply unrealistic. It is unrealistic to expect the US to now reduce GHG emissions to an extent that we couldn't do and that no other country has been able to do under the Paris Agreement.

It is certainly possible that other ways of reducing levels of atmospheric GHGs that are not currently being used, such as carbon removal technologies, can do the trick. But we must throw our weight behind those methods, rather than just rallying around juvenile anti-fossil fuel pablum.

Another conundrum that lies at the very heart of the GND resolution is the issue of achieving net-zero GHG emissions by 2050, and even the concept of net-zero emissions. The phrase "net-zero GHG emissions by 2050"' merely means no increase in contributing to atmospheric GHG levels in CO2e above the increased level projected to occur by 2050. Whether global net-zero GHG emissions by 2050 could theoretically prevent catastrophic global warming is logically and empirically questionable in more than one way. Such a calculation obviously depends upon one's assumptions by which to derive such projected figures, and, further, upon the lifespan time-frame one uses in calculating the Global Warming Potential values for non-CO2 GHGs. E.g., the GWP for methane is commonly calculated using a 100-year time-frame, which results in a much lower GWP value for methane than using a 20-year time-frame. A 20-year time-frame is closer to the atmospheric lifespan of methane, and recommended by IPCC. Thus the global warming impact of methane emissions is shorter-lived but much greater compared to CO2 than calculations commonly reveal. If one wants to lower the average global temperature by way of reducing GHG emissions, one concentrates on reducing emissions of methane and other short-lived but high-GWP GHGs. It's quite informative that this fact is rarely mentioned in discussions of what to do about anthropogenic global warming -- and it isn't difficult to figure out why this fact is rarely mentioned in such discussions. Indeed, the GND resolution essentially eliminates consideration of methane emissions with its repeated phrase "net-zero energy sources," since energy sources emit a relatively small portion of anthropogenic methane.

"meeting 100 percent of the power demand in the United States through clean, renewable, and zero-emission energy sources . . . "

How does one define "clean, renewable and zero-emission energy sources"? Which are the "clean, renewable, zero-emission energy sources"? Obviously hydropower cannot be one such energy source, since the ecological systems destroyed and the species annihilated by hydro-power installations are not renewable. The GHGs emitted by reservoirs created by dams are not clean. Problems with Big Dams. The 2000 Report by the World Commission on Dams, brokered by the World Bank and IUCN, explains that “dam construction is one of the major causes for freshwater species extinction,” noting as but one example that “a study of the threatened fish of Oklahoma suggested that the loss of freeflowing river habitat due to reservoirs had led to 55% of the human-induced species loss, while a further 19% was caused by dams acting as barriers to fish migration” (at 75). The Report cites case studies showing that reservoirs sometimes emit significantly greater GHGs in CO2e than those emitted by generating the same kilowatts by fossil fuels (Box 3.2, at 77).

But wind and solar power cannot possibly meet our energy requirements, either now or in the future. That means that meeting our energy requirements responsibly will entail the use of good, clean, safe nuclear power, in the form of meltdown-proof and proliferation-proof traveling wave reactors. Why doesn't the damn GND resolution just say that? Implementing TWR nuclear power requires further research and testing, and changing laws so that building such plants is not needlessly stymied by red tape and prohibitively expensive.

But the GND resolution doesn't say that because it is just a dog-whistle.

I find the dog-whistles from Democrats no more intelligent than the dog-whistles that come from Trump.

I also find it offensive to try to equate the economic situation today with the Great Depression, and the need for implementing the New Deal measures during the 1930s. People were literally starving in massive numbers during the Depression, and there were no safety nets. Unemployment was 3.14℅ in 1929 and was 25% in 1933. Unemployment did not dip below 10% until 1941. Today there is historically low unemployment; two-thirds of Americans are obese or overweight and a slightly higher percent takes one or more prescription drugs daily. More than half of Americans eat at least 2 prescription drugs every day, and a third swallow 3 or more prescription drugs each day. In contrast to the Great Depression, in the wake of the financial market collapse in 2008, there was an increase of millions of Americans applying for and receiving disability benefits, with an inordinate percentage of these for mental disorders. There simply is no comparison between reasons for the New Deal and the reasons for the Green New Deal.

We need a Green Get Real, not an unrealistic, ineffable Green New Deal.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Coal/oil on the way out

More than half of the U.S. coal mines operating in 2008 have since closed

In the United States, decreasing demand for coal has contributed to lower coal production, which has fallen by more than one-third since peak production in 2008. As U.S. coal demand has declined, the number of active coal mines has decreased by more than half, from 1,435 mines in 2008 to 671 mines in 2017. As the U.S. market contracted, smaller, less efficient mines were the first to close, and most of the mine closures were in the Appalachian region.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2019.01.30/main.png
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2019.01.30/chart3.png

The U.S. has more coal reserves than any other country. Additionally, we remain one of the world’s top producers of coal—third only behind China and India. And, coal accounted for 30.1% of U.S. electricity generation in 2017

The reason the US has more coal reserves than any other country is because the other countries are running out of COAL!!!!

In addition to our robust oil production, the U.S. also has the largest government-owned stockpile of emergency crude oil in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). And, at 660 million barrels, the SPR is by far the largest oil stockpile in the world. The SPR was created after the oil embargo of 1973–74, when the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries cut off their supply of oil to the United States.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/10/f56/American Energy Dominance_10.18.18.pdf

Department of Energy
DOE Announces Notice of Sale of Crude Oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve
FEBRUARY 28, 2019

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Today, the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Office of Fossil Energy (FE) announced a Notice of Sale of crude oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR).

DOE plans to draw down and sell crude oil from three SPR sites—Bryan Mound and Big Hill in Texas, and West Hackberry in Louisiana. This sale will fulfill requirements for Section 404 of the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2015 (Public Law 114-74).

The Congressionally mandated sale is authorized in Section 404 of the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2015. The law authorizes the Secretary of Energy to draw down and sell up to $2 billion of SPR crude oil, for fiscal years (FYs) 2017 through 2020, to carry out an SPR modernization program. In FY 2019, the Secretary is authorized to sell up to $300 million worth of crude oil from the SPR to carry out the SPR Life Extension Phase II project—a component of the SPR modernization program, in accordance with the Energy and Water, Legislative Branch, and Military Construction and Veterans Affairs Appropriations Act, 2019 (Public Law 115-244). The proceeds from this sale will be deposited into DOE’s Energy Security and Infrastructure Modernization Fund during FY 2019.
DOE Announces Notice of Sale of Crude Oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve

NOTICE----- The reason Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) is now selling it's reserves is because private reserves cannot supply the needed demand!!! (we are running out of OIL!!!!)

The truth will set us free !! -

:)-
 
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