What is creationism?

[Guy Threepwood]

Plenty of proponents of Evolution may not believe in a god, but that's not from within the framework of the Theory of Evolution it self, nor does it predict that there is no god. The problem isn't the notion of a god existing, but that god created all clades of life as they are.

An evolutionist is any person who accepts evolution, and there are plenty of theistic evolutionists. So your point is still invalid.

There are different perspectives obviously, but I personally agree with both Darwin and Dawkins on this point

For Darwin, any evolution that had to be helped over the jumps by God was no evolution at all. It made a nonsense of the central point of evolution. The Blind Watchmaker (1996) p.249

I don't see how you can have both, unless ones believes the odd assertion; that God created evolution- with no particular interest in what it produced- and that the result of a single sentient species capable of experiencing and being grateful for his creation, ... was a bizarre coincidence!?

 

[Parsimony]

There are different perspectives obviously, but I personally agree with both Darwin and Dawkins on this point

For Darwin, any evolution that had to be helped over the jumps by God was no evolution at all. It made a nonsense of the central point of evolution. The Blind Watchmaker (1996) p.249

I don't see how you can have both, unless ones believes the odd assertion; that God created evolution- with no particular interest in what it produced- and that the result of a single sentient species capable of experiencing and being grateful for his creation, ... was a bizarre coincidence!?

Evolution is just a change of frequencies of genes in a gene pool. Adding God into the equation does nothing to stop that. A theistic evolutionist is a person who finds the evidence for God and for evolution to both be convincing. They don't have to know how to mesh the two together in order to hold those beliefs. Plenty of people accept both the Theory of Relativity and quantum mechanics even though scientists don't yet know how to mesh those two together, for example. Even at that, I'm sure plenty of theistic evolutionists already have a way of reconciling to two concepts that at least satisfies themselves.

 

[viole]

Evolution is just a change of frequencies of genes in a gene pool. Adding God into the equation does nothing to stop that. A theistic evolutionist is a person who finds the evidence for God and for evolution to both be convincing. They don't have to know how to mesh the two together in order to hold those beliefs. Plenty of people accept both the Theory of Relativity and quantum mechanics even though scientists don't yet know how to mesh those two together, for example. Even at that, I'm sure plenty of theistic evolutionists already have a way of reconciling to two concepts that at least satisfies themselves.

So, for you evolution is evolution by supernatural selection? And what about all the natural catastrophies, like earthquakes, giant asteroids, vulcanos, planetary climate changes, etc. that are important drivers of evolution which led ultimately to us? Have they also been fine tuned by a master designer, so that a squirrel looking mammal could leave safely its hole and evolve into a special primate in order to replace some other ruling species with bigger teeth?

You are free to believe that but I would not venturing in saying that this compatible with science. It is not. Evolution mechanisms are by natural selection. Unguided and ateleological.

And very wasteful, amoral, inefficient, etc. Do you really believe that a benevolent and omnipotent God with a clear intent in mine would use that to achieve His objectives?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

There are different perspectives obviously, but I personally agree with both Darwin and Dawkins on this point

For Darwin, any evolution that had to be helped over the jumps by God was no evolution at all. It made a nonsense of the central point of evolution. The Blind Watchmaker (1996) p.249

I don't see how you can have both, unless ones believes the odd assertion; that God created evolution- with no particular interest in what it produced- and that the result of a single sentient species capable of experiencing and being grateful for his creation, ... was a bizarre coincidence!?

I know a few people that believe that god put the mechanics of evolution into action, knowing full well that it would eventually lead to the rise of human beings.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

So, for you evolution is evolution by supernatural selection? And what about all the natural catastrophies, like earthquakes, giant asteroids, vulcanos, planetary climate changes, etc. that are important drivers of evolution which led ultimately to us? Have they also been fine tuned by a master designer, so that a squirrel looking mammal could leave safely its hole and evolve into a special primate in order to replace some other ruling species with bigger teeth?

You are free to believe that but I would not venturing in saying that this compatible with science. It is not. Evolution mechanisms are by natural selection. Unguided and ateleological.

And very wasteful, amoral, inefficient, etc. Do you really believe that a benevolent and omnipotent God with a clear intent in mine would use that to achieve His objectives?

Ciao

- viole

If this is the God of the Bible we're talking about, I wouldn't call him benevolent. This is a supposed deity who has no problem sending people to eternal torture. Who's to say he wouldn't get a kick out of watching/controlling the very wasteful, amoral, inefficient, and harsh process of evolution through natural selection? =P

 

[viole]

If this is the God of the Bible we're talking about, I wouldn't call him benevolent. This is a supposed deity who has no problem sending people to eternal torture. Who's to say he wouldn't get a kick out of watching/controlling the very wasteful, amoral, inefficient, and harsh process of evolution through natural selection? =P

Well, if things went wrong, and He did not intervene, He might have needed to incarnate as a velociraptor. I cannot imagine a divine redeemer with such teeth.

So, maybe you are right. He must have fined tuned the orbit of a huge stone between Mars and Jupiter exactly in order to avoid that inconvenience.



Ciao

- viole

 

[Parsimony]

So, for you evolution is evolution by supernatural selection? And what about all the natural catastrophies, like earthquakes, giant asteroids, vulcanos, planetary climate changes, etc. that are important drivers of evolution which led ultimately to us? Have they also been fine tuned by a master designer, so that a squirrel looking mammal could leave safely its hole and evolve into a special primate in order to replace some other ruling species with bigger teeth?

You are free to believe that but I would not venturing in saying that this compatible with science. It is not. Evolution mechanisms are by natural selection. Unguided and ateleological.

I believe in natural selection. If there was any kind of supernatural planning going on, it would have been built in since the beginning using natural events as tools. At least, the existing evidence doesn't suggest to me that DNA was altered supernaturally to make evolution happen.

And very wasteful, amoral, inefficient, etc. Do you really believe that a benevolent and omnipotent God with a clear intent in mine would use that to achieve His objectives?

I wouldn't have chosen that kind of method myself, no. If God was behind it, I don't claim to understand His reasoning.

 

[Skwim]

Plenty of proponents of Evolution may not believe in a god, but that's not from within the framework of the Theory of Evolution it self, nor does it predict that there is no god. The problem isn't the notion of a god existing, but that god created all clades of life as they are.

You're absolutely correct. Evolutionists don't care what one proposes as the initiator, be it god or abiogenesis. And creationists know this---although many bring up origins as a red herring; a spurious reason to discount evolution. Evolution only concerns itself with the development of life over time, not its origins.

 

[viole]

I believe in natural selection. If there was any kind of supernatural planning going on, it would have been built in since the beginning using natural events as tools.

I wouldn't have chosen that kind of method myself, no. If God was behind it, I don't claim to understand His reasoning.

Do you think evolution by natural selection would have produced the same outcome without any initial God's intervention?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Parsimony]

Do you think evolution by natural selection would have produced the same outcome without any initial God's intervention?

Ciao

- viole

Evolution is a process very sensitive to initial starting conditions, so I really have no way of knowing.

 

[viole]

Evolution is a process very sensitive to initial starting conditions, so I really have no way of knowing.

Let's make a little gedanken experiment. I possess the scientifc power to annhililate a certain species in order to favor another one. For all practical purposes, I influenced evolution on earth out of my free will.

Did it also depend on the initial conditions of the Universe?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Parsimony]

Let's make a little gedanken experiment. I possess the scientifc power to annhililate a certain species in order to favor another one. For all practical purposes, I influenced evolution on earth out of my free will.

Did it also depend on the initial conditions of the Universe?

Ciao

- viole

Possibly, since the evolution of that particular species you chose to annihilate may have not occurred if the initial conditions were slightly different.

 

[viole]

Possibly, since the evolution of that particular species you chose to annihilate may have not occurred if the initial conditions were slightly different.

Ergo, my will is possibly caused by events or conditions that predate my existence.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Parsimony]

Ergo, my will is possibly caused by events or conditions that predate my existence.

Ciao

- viole

I'd say influenced more than caused, since it's also quite possible that the randomness of quantum physics affects our brain's functioning as well. Maybe. I don't know if there is any evidence for that or not. Not sure what that has to do with evolution, though.

 

[viole]

I'd say influenced more than caused, since it's also quite possible that the randomness of quantum physics affects our brain's functioning as well. Maybe. I don't know if there is any evidence for that or not. Not sure what that has to do with evolution, though.

Nothing, I am fooling around.

Do you think our will is influenced by physical processes?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I know a few people that believe that god put the mechanics of evolution into action, knowing full well that it would eventually lead to the rise of human beings.

That seemed to be what Leibowde was saying, but if humans (and all other life?) was intentionally part of the specific design goal of evolution, that certainly ain't the 'blind watchmaker' process that Dawkins preaches and evolution is taught as is it?

 

[prometheus11]

I'd say influenced more than caused, since it's also quite possible that the randomness of quantum physics affects our brain's functioning as well. Maybe. I don't know if there is any evidence for that or not. Not sure what that has to do with evolution, though.

I wish I could find the articles, but there has been some speculation that quantum uncertainty might play a role in evolution. If some possible change does not lead to further changes, then the prior change has a lesser likelihood.

I'm sure I'm not expressing that correctly, but the ideas seem at least a tiny bit plausible.

 

[Parsimony]

Nothing, I am fooling around.

Do you think our will is influenced by physical processes?

Ciao

- viole

As far as I can tell, our will is due entirely to physical processes (since I hold that the mind is a byproduct of the brain). I'm sure you'd then follow with the question about how God can make us morally accountable like that and I don't know. It's questions like that which make me have doubts (and I have those in spades these days). That's the whole reason I joined this discussion board, attempting to find solutions one way or the other. Haven't gotten there yet.

I wish I could find the articles, but there has been some speculation that quantum uncertainty might play a role in evolution. If some possible change does not lead to further changes, then the prior change has a lesser likelihood.

I'm sure I'm not expressing that correctly, but the ideas seem at least a tiny bit plausible.

Mutation is a molecular-scale phenomenon where quantum weirdness could indeed have a big influence. I wouldn't be surprised if that turned out to be the case.

 

[viole]

As far as I can tell, our will is due entirely to physical processes (since I hold that the mind is a byproduct of the brain). I'm sure you'd then follow with the question about how God can make us morally accountable like that and I don't know. It's questions like that which make me have doubts (and I have those in spades these days). That's the whole reason I joined this discussion board, attempting to find solutions one way or the other. Haven't gotten there yet.

The solution is amazingly simple . It is like the theory of cosmic ether before Einstein. Everyone before him thought it existed. Remove it and everything becomes clearer.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Guy Threepwood]

As far as I can tell, our will is due entirely to physical processes (since I hold that the mind is a byproduct of the brain). I'm sure you'd then follow with the question about how God can make us morally accountable like that and I don't know. It's questions like that which make me have doubts (and I have those in spades these days). That's the whole reason I joined this discussion board, attempting to find solutions one way or the other. Haven't gotten there yet.

Mutation is a molecular-scale phenomenon where quantum weirdness could indeed have a big influence. I wouldn't be surprised if that turned out to be the case.

That would certainly parallel precisely, our enlightenment about the physical reality of the universe- what was once taught as the inevitable (and God refuting) result of simple, 'immutable', 'undeniable' laws, with lots of time and space to knock randomly around in, turned out to be very specifically guided by detailed underlying instructions, without which nothing would happen.