What is Evil?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hello, friends!

Do we agree on what is evil and what is not?
There are many potential approaches to this. Here I just state 3 that come to my mind, but I encourage you to add and comment.

1. "What the Bible/Quran or sacred text says to be evil, is evil", but then we ran into the problem of context, and of applying "principles" to situations that were not contemplated explicitly in the sacred text.
2. Whatever reduces a key value of the person, or society, is evil (eg happiness, freedom, well-baing). But then, what we understand for "happiness", "freedom", "well-being" or whatever value we consider important, is subject to debate in certain contexts. Then, not all "reductions" are significant (do very small reductions qualify as "evil"?). Furthermore, sometimes we sacrifice certain value to increase another value. For example, we may sacrifice certain degree of freedom to achieve more happiness, or viceversa.
3. Whatever society agrees to be evil at a given time and place.

 

[Eddi]

A combination of harmfulness and depravity

That which is undesirable and needs to be punished

 

[dybmh]

what is evil and what is not?

IMO:

Evil are intentions. Motives. Nothing more.

Evil is the desire to do harm for no other purpose other than pleasure. It is a very narrow definition.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Do we agree on what is evil and what is not?

It depends on what you think 'evil' is.

 

[sun rise]

Whatever society agrees to be evil at a given time and place.

That's certainly one explanation. It used to be good to eat one's enemiess, sacrifice children to appease the gods, genitally cut women, and so forth. Our view changes with time, culture and differing interpretations of religious doctrine.

 

[dybmh]

What the Bible/Quran or sacred text says to be evil

The "Bible" originally was written in Hebrew. The word "evil" does not exist there. The word is "Rah", like the Egyptian god. Hebrew block script is iconography. The form of the letters help to express the meaning of the word. Here is the word which is translated to evil: "Rah" It is a curved "reish" and an empty vessel, "ayin". Don't forget to read, right to left, the opposite of English.

 

[JACC2312]

Evil origin is Egolatry, to put oneself as ultimate judge of morality of our Acts, that is the Original Sin in fact, Dissobedience.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

IMO:

Evil are intentions. Motives. Nothing more.

Evil is the desire to do harm for no other purpose other than pleasure. It is a very narrow definition.

Interesting perspective.
Do you consider as "evil" the harm caused by laziness or lack of attention to accepted responsibilities?
For example, if a person is killed by a drunk driver? A worker that provokes an accident for not paying attention to the checklist prior to activating a machine or industrial process?

 

[dybmh]

Interesting perspective.

Thank you. I appreciate hearing that.

Do you consider as "evil" the harm caused by laziness or lack of attention to accepted responsibilities?

I don't. There's good reasons to be lazy sometimes and there's good reasons to prioritize such that accepted responsibilities are dropped, sometimes. My method for evaluating questions like the one you just posed is simply to look for a counter-example. As soon as I find one, I know that the general rule is not true in all cases. Evil is one of those categories where I do not want to be heavy handed. If I am labeling something "evil" I want to be sure.

For example, if a person is killed by a drunk driver? A worker that provokes an accident for not paying attention to the checklist prior to activating a machine or industrial process?

For me, speaking only for myself. Those are mistakes. Mistakes are not evil. Mistakes happen for all sort of reasons. The expression that comes to mind is: "nothing occurs in a vacuum". It's true isn't it? Literally. So far, in physical science, there is no true, absolute vacuum. And if there was, I can't be certain, but, "Nothing occurs in a vacuum" sounds literally true to me.

The point is, if I start to play the blame-game, where does the game end? Every event is a consequence of the events preceding it. I will never stop my pursuit for the absolute root cause. Unless the motive is harm for pleasure and nothing else. <--- That's evil. I'm sure.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

How about "I was only following orders" when the result of doing so is harm to others? That sounds very evil to me...

 

[I Am Hugh]

Hello, friends!

Do we agree on what is evil and what is not?
There are many potential approaches to this. Here I just state 3 that come to my mind, but I encourage you to add and comment.

1. "What the Bible/Quran or sacred text says to be evil, is evil", but then we ran into the problem of context, and of applying "principles" to situations that were not contemplated explicitly in the sacred text.
2. Whatever reduces a key value of the person, or society, is evil (eg happiness, freedom, well-baing). But then, what we understand for "happiness", "freedom", "well-being" or whatever value we consider important, is subject to debate in certain contexts. Then, not all "reductions" are significant (do very small reductions qualify as "evil"?). Furthermore, sometimes we sacrifice certain value to increase another value. For example, we may sacrifice certain degree of freedom to achieve more happiness, or viceversa.
3. Whatever society agrees to be evil at a given time and place.

Evil, bad, good are subjective terms. The Hebrew word evil, ra, can mean “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Ge 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Ex 33:4; De 6:22; 28:35; Pr 23:6; 28:22. See here and here)

The KJV says God creates evil, which is, in my opinion, more accurately translated as calamity, but evil works as well. The term being subjective. A kid thinks discipline is bad, evil.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you. I appreciate hearing that.



I don't. There's good reasons to be lazy sometimes and there's good reasons to prioritize such that accepted responsibilities are dropped, sometimes. My method for evaluating questions like the one you just posed is simply to look for a counter-example. As soon as I find one, I know that the general rule is not true in all cases. Evil is one of those categories where I do not want to be heavy handed. If I am labeling something "evil" I want to be sure.



For me, speaking only for myself. Those are mistakes. Mistakes are not evil. Mistakes happen for all sort of reasons. The expression that comes to mind is: "nothing occurs in a vacuum". It's true isn't it? Literally. So far, in physical science, there is no true, absolute vacuum. And if there was, I can't be certain, but, "Nothing occurs in a vacuum" sounds literally true to me.

The point is, if I start to play the blame-game, where does the game end? Every event is a consequence of the events preceding it. I will never stop my pursuit for the absolute root cause. Unless the motive is harm for pleasure and nothing else. <--- That's evil. I'm sure.

I like your perspective of considering many of our sins as mistakes. I think God sees them that way.
Now, when I definitively know that my mistake led to a bad outcome, and definitively know I can prevent that mistake to happen again, but I still don't take any action to prevent it because I am fonder of a short-term pleasure or evasion, then I am doing evil.

To me it is a matter of prioritizing values.
What is more valuable: the short term pleasure of getting drunk or high + driving my own car, or the life of another human being?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How about "I was only following orders" when the result of doing so is harm to others? That sounds very evil to me...

If it is very likely that by not following orders you and your family will be harmed, I can understand that many people will prefer to harm others.
Calculating the likelihood of being harmed, and the magnitude of such harm, so that you can balance that with the harm you will inflict on others, can be very difficult and a cause of great anxiety and even madness.

 

[dybmh]

What is more valuable: the short term pleasure of getting drunk or high + driving my own car, or the life of another human being?

I'm not perfect. I can't be. There is one and only one which is. So, yeah, I'm going to be stupid, and thoughtless, and hurt people sometimes. It could be, at some point in my life I am possessed by some animal impulse and my judgment lapses. God-forbid I do something really awful and cause irreparable harm. I am part animal. I cannot help that. It's how I was made.

But if I do the crime, I will absolutely do the time, and pay the fine whatever it is. I won't run away from it. I won't deny it. That is my own personal moral code. That is how I prove to myself, I am not evil, even if have serious lapses in judgment.

Gratefully, so far, I haven't messed up too badly... yet. Perhaps I'm over-due. Lord have mercy.

Nice meeting you, I hope to see you around.

 

[dybmh]

How about "I was only following orders" when the result of doing so is harm to others? That sounds very evil to me...

My vote?

It depends. It could be evil, or not. It depends on the motive behind the duty-bound action. Insubordination can itself cause great harm. If causing harm was the metric for evil, then each and every child-birth would be evil. That's because each and every child-birth harms the mother. The infant did not choose to be born. It is just "following orders" as it stretches and tears its mother's body out of proportion on delivery.

 

[dybmh]

What the Bible/Quran or sacred text says

I'd like to direct you to the pictogram I posted earlier of the original word in Hebrew which is translated to English as "Evil". As I mentioned previously, it is constructed with two letters, a curved "reish" and an open vessel, an "ayin".



What you are looking at is a curved serpent being drawn into a pot, a "honey-pot". The serpent is being trapped. If you are a student of scripture, I encourage you to keep this in mind while reading the garden of eden story. If it is read from the perspective of a "mouse-trap", then the entire story takes on a new dimension. Everything makes a lot more sense. God has set a snare for the serpent. And while many like to point to God as evil, because Eve has become the bait for the trap, that is not how I am reading it at all. Eve is not the bait. The bait is the Law.

Confirmation of this can be found, if one carefully reads the story and then asks them-self one very important and overlooked question:

Which laws were incumbent on Eve? The correct answer is Zero. There are 2 laws given. Law #1 was given to Adam before Eve was built from him. Law #2 was given only to Adam as well. Eve was completely, 100% free to do as she willed in the garden. She was even permitted to take the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge and give it to Adam. Adam taking the fruit from Eve NOT directly from the tree is perfectly OK. It is a loophole in the law. There will always be loopholes in any law, and that is why each and every individual needs knowledge of good and evil in order to follow the "spirit of the law" in spite of the loopholes which will always be there somewhere.

Confirmation of this can be clearly found in the confession sequence at the end of Gen 3. The only one which is cursed is the serpent. Many ask a very good question: What was the serpent's sin. That can also be found if one reads the troy carefully. But is is obscured when it is read in English. There were 2 laws given to Adam. There were no laws given to Eve. What was the law given to the serpent? It's hiding in plain sight. God says: "And so, a man shall cleave to his wife." That means no one else can cleave to her. That law, is general and includes many more than just Adam. It includes the serpent. And the serpent was in a manner of speaking cleaving to Adam's wife. I think it's safe to conclude the intention was there.

And as a result, the serpent was trapped, pushed down onto its belly, eating the dust of the earth, but it is rising, always rising, because that is needed in order to have a material world apart from the absolutely infinite source which many refer to in English as "God". And that is the story in the bible of the origin of Evil.

IN the story, the serpent wants nothing more than to break the law for its own pleasure. It can eat from any tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life. But it chooses instead to do harm for no other motive than its own pleasure. Remember, the serpent ( a beast of the field ) was created immediately prior to the law being given prohibiting the eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It knew the law. it knew the loophole. It knew Eve wasn't there yet. It was also there when Adam and Eve consummated their relationship. And it heard the directive prohibiting taking Eve and cleaving to her itself. It wanted Eve, only because she was prohibited to it. That is evil if it is causing harm.

What is evil? It is the motive to do harm for pleasure and nothing else.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

My vote?

It depends. It could be evil, or not. It depends on the motive behind the duty-bound action. Insubordination can itself cause great harm. If causing harm was the metric for evil, then each and every child-birth would be evil. That's because each and every child-birth harms the mother. The infant did not choose to be born. It is just "following orders" as it stretches and tears its mother's body out of proportion on delivery.

I would not construct childbirth so.

I was thinking in terms of, for example, those Germans who went to their day-to-day jobs that they knew were directly and indirectly resulting in the deaths of Jews, the Roma, gays, communists, etc., in the death camps. "I was just following orders" was not accepted as a defense in the War Crimes trials.

But there have been millions more who have likewise knowingly contributed to the death, disenfranchisement, dis-figuration and other evils against other persons.

 

[dybmh]

I would not construct childbirth so.

I was thinking in terms of, for example, those Germans who went to their day-to-day jobs that they knew were directly and indirectly resulting in the deaths of Jews, the Roma, gays, communists, etc., in the death camps. "I was just following orders" was not accepted as a defense in the War Crimes trials.

But there have been millions more who have likewise knowingly contributed to the death, disenfranchisement, dis-figuration and other evils against other persons.

Those Germans? Could there have been contributing factors which are not being considered? How they were raised? It's the same for almost any example? People are the product of nature and nurture? Do they choose their nature? Do they choose their nurture? If not, can they, the negligent individual be fairly judged as evil? I vote no.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Those Germans? Could there have been contributing factors which are not being considered? How they were raised? It's the same for almost any example? People are the product of nature and nurture? Do they choose their nature? Do they choose their nurture? If not, can they, the negligent individual be fairly judged as evil? I vote no.

As having committed evil, yes. As you say, the real world is complex, and there are almost always extenuating circumstances. And it's not just "Those Germans," although that was the example I named. Millions of Americans contributed knowingly and willingly to the evil of the attempted extermination of the native nations in the Americas. Millions also contributed, knowing and willingly, to the evil of slavery and segregation. There are likely hundreds of thousands who are today engaged in the production and distribution of weapons systems that are being used to commit atrocities around the world right now. But in all cases, there are millions more who do not speak out and act against such everyday evils.

Having been raised in such a system, or fearing for your livelihood or life, does not make the results of your contribution and inaction any less evil.

I do not by any means exonerate myself from this. I am part of a society that has in the past and does in the present commit evil. I am trying to live my life to minimize that...but that we do evil is still a basic fact.

 

[dybmh]

Millions of Americans contributed knowingly and willingly to the evil of the attempted extermination of the native nations in the Americas.

What were their motives? I think it would be good to list them.

the results of your contribution and inaction any less evil.

So, to be clear. The metric for evil is the outcome?