What is Faith?

[Trailblazer]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, what is the definition of faith?

faith

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

faith means - Google Search

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove, and it could be God or something or someone else. Faith is justified by the evidence, so for example if a spouse was always trustworthy and honest that would be evidence and a reason to have faith in that spouse.

I argue that we cannot go through life without faith, even if we do not believe in God. We have to have faith in anything we cannot prove and there are many things that cannot be proven in the course of everyday life. I cannot prove that if I go to college I will graduate, so I have to have faith in my abilities. I cannot prove that if I retire things will go as I planned, because I could suddenly get ill. The list goes on and on.

If faith is necessary for so many things in everyday life what is the problem with having faith in God?

Well, I already know what atheists will say, that there is no evidence for God so belief is unjustified. Atheists say that if only there was sufficient evidence, we would not have to have faith to believe in God, but that is absolutely false because evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, and since God can never be verified there can never be any proof that God exists.

No matter what kind of evidence we had we could never PROVE that evidence originated from God so we would have to have faith in our evidence.

There is no proof that God exists so if we are going to believe in God, we need to have faith.

I argue that there is evidence for God’s existence so faith in God is justified.

I argue that it is illogical to expect to ever have proof of God since God is not subject to proof.

The only way we could ever have proof that God exists, making faith unnecessary, is for God to appear on earth so we could see God with our own eyes, but there is a good reason why God never appears on earth.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

That is why the Bible says that nobody has ever seen God, because nobody can see God and live.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah concur with the Bible.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

If the God ever appeared on earth, so powerful is God’s light that we would all be reduced to utter nothingness. Sure, everyone would believe in God because it would be obvious to everyone that God exists, but what good would our belief be if we did not live?

 

[idea]

misplaced faith.

Let's say your spouse isn't loyal, or your bank goes under, or your roof caves in.

Under what circumstances is it justifiable to lose faith?

I no longer have faith in God. Some agree, some think I am evil.

At what point do you leave a marriage, use a different bank, move to a different house? Change your beliefs?

 

[Trailblazer]

misplaced faith.

Let's say your spouse isn't loyal, or your bank goes under, or your roof caves in.

Under what circumstances is it justifiable to lose faith?

When you no longer think it is justified to have faith.

I no longer have faith in God. Some agree, some think I am evil.

I do not agree or disagree because faith is a personal choice. Nobody should call you evil.

At what point do you leave a marriage, use a different bank, move to a different house? Change your beliefs?

You leave a marriage, use a different bank, move to a different house when you decide those are not working for you anymore.
It may or may not be because you lost faith in them.

You change your beliefs when you lose faith in them or because they are not working for you anymore.

 

[idea]

When you no longer think it is justified to have faith.

I do not agree or disagree because faith is a personal choice. Nobody should call you evil.

You leave a marriage, use a different bank, move to a different house when you decide those are not working for you anymore.
It may or may not be because you lost faith in them.

You change your beliefs when you lose faith in them or because they are not working for you anymore.

O ye of little faith...
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

the grass has no clothes...

not working for you anymore - yes, prayers didn't work for me. never did.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Faith is belief in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom is both a story (“The Kingdom is like…”) and a destination, so faith is the ability to navigate through the story.

 

[Secret Chief]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, what is the definition of faith?

faith

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

faith means - Google Search

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove, and it could be God or something or someone else. Faith is justified by the evidence, so for example if a spouse was always trustworthy and honest that would be evidence and a reason to have faith in that spouse.

I argue that we cannot go through life without faith, even if we do not believe in God. We have to have faith in anything we cannot prove and there are many things that cannot be proven in the course of everyday life. I cannot prove that if I go to college I will graduate, so I have to have faith in my abilities. I cannot prove that if I retire things will go as I planned, because I could suddenly get ill. The list goes on and on.

If faith is necessary for so many things in everyday life what is the problem with having faith in God?

Well, I already know what atheists will say, that there is no evidence for God so belief is unjustified. Atheists say that if only there was sufficient evidence, we would not have to have faith to believe in God, but that is absolutely false because evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, and since God can never be verified there can never be any proof that God exists.

No matter what kind of evidence we had we could never PROVE that evidence originated from God so we would have to have faith in our evidence.

There is no proof that God exists so if we are going to believe in God, we need to have faith.

I argue that there is evidence for God’s existence so faith in God is justified.

I argue that it is illogical to expect to ever have proof of God since God is not subject to proof.

The only way we could ever have proof that God exists, making faith unnecessary, is for God to appear on earth so we could see God with our own eyes, but there is a good reason why God never appears on earth.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

That is why the Bible says that nobody has ever seen God, because nobody can see God and live.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah concur with the Bible.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

If the God ever appeared on earth, so powerful is God’s light that we would all be reduced to utter nothingness. Sure, everyone would believe in God because it would be obvious to everyone that God exists, but what good would our belief be if we did not live?

I have faith my partner will remain true to me. I hope it is justified.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, what is the definition of faith?

faith

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

faith means - Google Search

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove, and it could be God or something or someone else. Faith is justified by the evidence, so for example if a spouse was always trustworthy and honest that would be evidence and a reason to have faith in that spouse.

I argue that we cannot go through life without faith, even if we do not believe in God. We have to have faith in anything we cannot prove and there are many things that cannot be proven in the course of everyday life. I cannot prove that if I go to college I will graduate, so I have to have faith in my abilities. I cannot prove that if I retire things will go as I planned, because I could suddenly get ill. The list goes on and on.

If faith is necessary for so many things in everyday life what is the problem with having faith in God?

Well, I already know what atheists will say, that there is no evidence for God so belief is unjustified. Atheists say that if only there was sufficient evidence, we would not have to have faith to believe in God, but that is absolutely false because evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, and since God can never be verified there can never be any proof that God exists.

No matter what kind of evidence we had we could never PROVE that evidence originated from God so we would have to have faith in our evidence.

There is no proof that God exists so if we are going to believe in God, we need to have faith.

I argue that there is evidence for God’s existence so faith in God is justified.

I argue that it is illogical to expect to ever have proof of God since God is not subject to proof.

The only way we could ever have proof that God exists, making faith unnecessary, is for God to appear on earth so we could see God with our own eyes, but there is a good reason why God never appears on earth.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

That is why the Bible says that nobody has ever seen God, because nobody can see God and live.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah concur with the Bible.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

If the God ever appeared on earth, so powerful is God’s light that we would all be reduced to utter nothingness. Sure, everyone would believe in God because it would be obvious to everyone that God exists, but what good would our belief be if we did not live?

It means there is a gambling belief in something that may or may not be there, but the assumption is, it is there.

 

[idea]

Faith is belief in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom is both a story (“The Kingdom is like…”) and a destination, so faith is the ability to navigate through the story.

hope - for things to come
faith - in what currently is

hope for heaven, for justice, for kindness, for utopian future. we all hope for a lot of things we do not have faith in, that we do not believe will ever actually exist. aim for the stars, hit the moon, it's good to aim.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

To me, faith is hope. Of course, no two words in the English language are exactly the same, but, when someone expresses their faith to me I immediately assume they hope that thing is going to happen. Of course, this isn't always true. For example, if someone has faith that they are going to Hell, even if they don't want to go to Hell, they could have faith they are going there, but not hope that it happens. To me, faith resembles things in the future that will be good for all of us. Typically the people who believe they are going to Hell probably actually want to go there anyways. Of course, there's exceptions, and some people believe bad things are going to happen to them, like you could have faith that one day all life on Earth will go extinct and there will be no true meaning of life because of this, but that kind of faith is a form of nihilism I don't think most people would subscribe to. Faith is typically both a belief and hope that something happens a certain way, like having faith that your football team will win the Super Bowl or something. Is it going to happen? Maybe, maybe not. The future is undecided. Faith represents hope for the future, and the word prophet literally means someone who can predict the future.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, what is the definition of faith?

faith

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

faith means - Google Search

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove, and it could be God or something or someone else. Faith is justified by the evidence, so for example if a spouse was always trustworthy and honest that would be evidence and a reason to have faith in that spouse.

...

Well, since I have It Aint Necessarily So on ignore and I can't remember how it is in the other direction, so keep that in mind.

But as a strong universal skeptic, there is to me no justified claims in the strong sense of the Western philosophical tradition, so it is all unjustified beliefs and thus faith.

 

[idea]

I have faith my partner will remain true to me. I hope it is justified.

I had faith that church was safe.
then the detectives called, asked me to ID kids from their videos...

reality changes sometimes. it's always something that happens to someone else, assume it will never be you, not your marriage, not your kids, not your bishop, not your religious community.

Is love really unconditional? You can perhaps have faith that you will never stop loving your spouse/parents/children no matter what they do - faith in love, define what it is to love - principles you can believe in, have faith in ideas and try to live up to it.

 

[idea]

To me, faith is hope. Of course, no two words in the English language are exactly the same, but, when someone expresses their faith to me I immediately assume they hope that thing is going to happen. Of course, this isn't always true. For example, if someone has faith that they are going to Hell, even if they don't want to go to Hell, they could have faith they are going there, but not hope that it happens. To me, faith resembles things in the future that will be good for all of us. Typically the people who believe they are going to Hell probably actually want to go there anyways. Of course, there's exceptions, and some people believe bad things are going to happen to them, like you could have faith that one day all life on Earth will go extinct and there will be no true meaning of life because of this, but that kind of faith is a form of nihilism I don't think most people would subscribe to. Faith is typically both a belief and hope that something happens a certain way, like having faith that your football team will win the Super Bowl or something. Is it going to happen? Maybe, maybe not. The future is undecided. Faith represents hope for the future, and the word prophet literally means someone who can predict the future.

If there is a hell, I will be there. Not from being evil, but through refusing to live with any being who would send others to hell.
not god, not loving, not supporting, or just, not educating, not guiding - condemning those not educated or cared for to hell? not god - not a being I would want to exist next to.

if hell exists, I have faith that god does not exist.... at least not anything loving, just, or praiseworthy.

 

[Secret Chief]

I had faith that church was safe.
then the detectives called, asked me to ID kids from their videos...

reality changes sometimes. it's always something that happens to someone else, assume it will never be you, not your marriage, not your kids, not your bishop, not your religious community.

Is love really unconditional? You can perhaps have faith that you will never stop loving your spouse/parents/children no matter what they do - faith in love, define what it is to love - principles you can believe in, have faith in ideas and try to live up to it.

Well yes I can't predict the future of the relationship with 100% certainty, but I live my life in the expectation that we shall remain true to each other.
I suppose my point is it seems rather unreasonable to make the blanket statement that faith is an unjustified belief. My faith in this case I feel is certainly justified (justified by my experiences of the last 30 years of living together).

 

[Nimos]

If faith is necessary for so many things in everyday life what is the problem with having faith in God?

Well, I already know what atheists will say, that there is no evidence for God so belief is unjustified. Atheists say that if only there was sufficient evidence, we would not have to have faith to believe in God, but that is absolutely false because evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, and since God can never be verified there can never be any proof that God exists.

We all have faith in things every single day, but I think one can look at it as if it was a certainty scale, that would look like this:

Certainty: Faith --------------------- Knowledge/Trust

It will pretty quickly be obvious that faith is the opposite of knowledge or said in another way, the lack of knowledge. The more knowledge you have the less faith is required. By knowledge, I mean things that can be demonstrated to be true. For instance, none of us has faith in gravity, we experience it constantly and have a pretty good understanding of how it works and what to expect.

As our knowledge gets weaker we can replace it with faith, which is basically just "things hoped for" and in many cases for no good reason, if the amount of evidence for something is none existing.

We all have faith in things every day, whether that is in our spouse not cheating, our friends etc. Obviously, if our spouse has never cheated on us we will move closer to knowledge/trust on the scale, simply because we have no reason to think they would do it, yet we can't get all the way, because it is impossible to demonstrate, that it couldn't happen.

Given that God hasn't been proven and the evidence for it is rather weak, it will fall in the category of faith. If we know something with close to 100% certainty, like gravity, then we do not need faith, because we have knowledge.

 

[idea]

Well yes I can't predict the future of the relationship with 100% certainty, but I live my life in the expectation that we shall remain true to each other.
I suppose my point is it seems rather unreasonable to make the blanket statement that faith is an unjustified belief. My faith in this case I feel is certainly justified (justified by my experiences of the last 30 years of living together).

some people go to church for 30 years, and their faith in their friends, and preachers, and church leaders - nothing major happens.... and they never understand - as I did not - those who change. they think they understand belief, think they understand faith - untested it's not faith.

perhaps understanding love - it has to be tested?
perhaps understanding faith - it has to be tested?

what is the answer to the test, is there a right or wrong answer?

 

[Secret Chief]

some people go to church for 30 years, and their faith in their friends, and preachers, and church leaders - nothing major happens.... and they never understand - as I did not - those who change. they think they understand belief, think they understand faith - untested it's not faith.

perhaps understanding love - it has to be tested?
perhaps understanding faith - it has to be tested?

what is the answer to the test, is there a right or wrong answer?

I can't really make the comparison with going to church. Maybe that's a different use of the word faith.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We all have faith in things every single day, but I think one can look at it as if it was a certainty scale, that would look like this:

Certainty: Faith --------------------- Knowledge/Trust

It will pretty quickly be obvious that faith is the opposite of knowledge or said in another way, the lack of knowledge. The more knowledge you have the less faith is required. By knowledge, I mean things that can be demonstrated to be true. For instance, none of us has faith in gravity, we experience it constantly and have a pretty good understanding of how it works and what to expect.

As our knowledge gets weaker we can replace it with faith, which is basically just "things hoped for" and in many cases for no good reason, if the amount of evidence for something is none existing.

We all have faith in things every day, whether that is in our spouse not cheating, our friends etc. Obviously, if our spouse has never cheated on us we will move closer to knowledge/trust on the scale, simply because we have no reason to think they would do it, yet we can't get all the way, because it is impossible to demonstrate, that it couldn't happen.

Given that God hasn't been proven and the evidence for it is rather weak, it will fall in the category of faith. If we know something with close to 100% certainty, like gravity, then we do not need faith, because we have knowledge.

Yeah, but here is the joke. There is a reason how come there is a version of science that is build on axiomatic assumptions, which are not considered true and this version of science has nothing to do with truth.
You are in effect doing philosophy. But in philosophy there is no consensus on what truth is or even if it is possible.

In these debate there is always also philosophy and not religion versus the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

hope - for things to come
faith - in what currently is

hope for heaven, for justice, for kindness, for utopian future. we all hope for a lot of things we do not have faith in, that we do not believe will ever actually exist. aim for the stars, hit the moon, it's good to aim.

Some people hope for things they don't have faith in, but some people hope for things they also have faith in.
When it comes to my religious beliefs, I have hope for what I also have faith in...
When it comes to my personal life, right now my hope is very shaky so I am trying to have faith so I don't lose the little hope I have.
I put my faith in God since I don't think I can effectuate the changes by myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me, faith is hope.

Faith is also hope for me, although I don't always have faith in what I hope for.

I love this Bible verse:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that God hasn't been proven and the evidence for it is rather weak, it will fall in the category of faith. If we know something with close to 100% certainty, like gravity, then we do not need faith, because we have knowledge.

But as I said in my OP, no amount of evidence, no matter how strong, is going to serve as proof of God unless it is verifiable evidence.
The only way everyone could know God exists with 100% certainty is if God showed up on earth, which is impossible for reasons I gave. Some people believe in God with 100% certainty because they claim to have experienced God, but that experience is only useful for them.

The upshot is that there is no way to believe in God without faith since we can never have proof that God exists.