What is in a Name?

[Cassandra]

In my view,

Pagan religions have little to do with ideological systems. It is about the spiritual connection with the ancestors, one's people, the Land, local spirits, customs, traditions. Sure, Pagans create great poetic stories that are told and retold with great joy but nothing people have to accept as the only truth.

Let us rather look at the spiritual side. People first Names are very important spiritually for the Pagan. American Indian names are given to children according to the nature of their spirit, people can feel that in a child. Germanic names are much the same. Sadly the beautiful Germanic names were largely replaced by Biblical names to murder their soul. What nonsense to give a person a Roman, Arab, Jewish foreign name when he is of Germanic, Gaelic, Greek etc descend. It is a way to create spiritual slaves.

Why call someone from Germanic descent John? His ancestry does not lie in Israel. Call your son Bertold (Magnificent ruler), Bertrand (Magnificent Shield), Dagobert (Beautiful day) etc. Because words have spiritual content too and if well chosen can strengthen the carrier and connect him to his ancestors.

People sometimes even carry secret names only known to true friends. Because as we all know a name can also be damaged if people start to speak ill of it. It carries a reputation. Knowing someones name also gives some power over the person. Because you can call people by their name. If you speak out someones name he will pay you attention. You can also invoke spirits by calling their name. And the names themselves tell about the aspect of the spirit you want to invoke.

For instance people often have the idea the ancients would simply worship the Sun. In reality Pagans would often worship certain roles of the Sun as separate entities. It is a certain role/quality they are interested in, not so much the being as a whole. That is not strange. We ourselves play many roles in our life, like parent, sister, brother, child, colleague,master, student, friend, lover , etc. When people talk to us they will talk to us in the particular role we are playing, and that sometimes goes along with a special name or a title, that invokes the right role in us. It is no different with other spirits.

A good way to start a new identity as a Pagan is to take on a Pagan name that suits your spirit. A name that brings your inner spirit out. A name that also connects you to your ancestors.

The last can be troublesome if your ancestors have been given Christian names for centuries. To connect to the ancestors you would have to give your children a Christian name again. But many people these days choose feel-good names from all over the world. Pagans could try to give their children Pagan names that express the same meaning as the Christian names of their ancestors.

Now Abrahamic names are often nasty. For instance John comes from Hebrew Yochanan meaning something like "Yahwey is gracious" (Eek). See how you are secretly spiritually bound to a foreign God?

And this God is not one most people would want to associate with. In Germanic tradition he would be closest to Loki, in Greek tradition to Kronos, in Roman tradition Saturn. A God associated with Agriculture but also known as trickster God, and associated with the Planet Saturn. He was venerated on Saturnday or Saturday (Jewish Sabath). He was highly venerated by both Romans and Jews. The Romans believed that he had fled to Rome and was given asylum by their ancient King Janus. Their Saturnalia (later Christmas) were their greatest festivities, in which slaves and masters did a role reversal.

This God is a trickster. And the Planet Saturn is in most Pagan traditions connected with bad luck and evil. Kronos was by the Greek regarded as the God that brought evil into the world when he castrated his father Uranus and took over his power, and also ate his own children. That is why his fate was to lose power to his Son(!) by trickery again. Those kind of things interested people in ancient times, and people like Hindus and Jews are still aware of the roles that Spirits play.

You want to become a Pagan?
It is a good idea to find a name that expresses your spirit, gives it power, and connects you to your ancestry. One that helps you stop being the spiritual orphan we have been made into by "Demon worshipers" (Demon = power-hungry spirit/God) that gave us names that tied us to an oppressive God. What Christians call bondage. If you want to be free of bondage, break the bondage of the name first. By the way, the underlying Gods are not intrinsically evil, but they also have Dark sides in which they play the role of Demons. In Abrahamic religions their megalomaniac egotist aspect (I am the only one) is revered. This aspect is called by supremacists to bring submission to other peoples... Gods, like people, have different sides to their character and can play different roles.

As long as you consider yourself a John you will be at the mercy/grace of a fear mongering Jahweh, because that is the spiritual connection. Call yourself "Paul"? It is a Roman name meaning "small" and "humble". You want to be small and humble? Call yourself Paul. Their God will humble you. All these names are full of spiritual meaning, to keep people submissive.

If Pagans want their own power back they should to carry Pagan names that go with their true spirit.

What do you think?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

For me names are just labels. If some-one says they've seen Columbus's tomb in Seville, they've successfully identified the person we're talking about, even if they believe he was a Spaniard who sailed the Atlantic to prove the Earth wasn't flat and became the first European to reach America. When my mother decided to call me David, she did so because she liked the name, not because she recognised my "davidity"!

Actually, I don't consider the name David to be Jewish. After all, he lived over 200 years before the first appearance of what may be called Judaism. He worshiped Yahweh, but as his tribal god: he would also have worshiped the rest of the Canaanite pantheon as well.

Should we all change our names? Personally, I wouldn't bother even if I were called John or Paul.

 

[Cassandra]

My view:

Personal views are personal views. No question about it. But they can raise some interesting questions.

So let us look at names in a wider perspective:
Is a name "just a label". My answer would be. Tell people your name is "Adolf" and find out if it is "just a label" or a word that carries a spiritual load. Will people treat you the same way? Now tell them your name is Mohamed and again study their reactions. Then tell them your name is Yehudi and see if there are changes in the way people react to you.

If a name were just a label it should not make a difference. Why not give people registration numbers instead, like they did in the concentration camps? From a practical point of view this must be a good idea as it creates less confusion, more efficiency. By the way, why did the Nazi's rather identify camp inmates by number? One of the reasons was to purposely dehumanize them. For the Nazi's did understand that a name is more than just a label to identify a person. That when you take his name and replace it with a number, you take away his identity, his belonging, even a part of his humanity. And also important, it makes it easier for unfeeling people to treat others like animals when they are stripped of their names.

It is telling that we would hate to be given numbers in stead of names with a meaning. After all, would a unique number, not stress our unique individuality better? Would it not make me unique in the Universe to be the only person named 1223345655? Would I not carry that number with pride, knowing I am a unique individual?

Why would people rather be called John when there is a million people called John? Why? Exactly for the reason that other people are called John. To be called John means allegiance. It means belonging to a group of people in which those names are common. It means being connected. It means much to us to feel a connection in a name, and the name must express the right connection.

A Pagan feels connected to his ancestral tradition. So for Pagan more than any other people a name connecting him to his ancestral tradition is important. If somebody says, Yeah I find ancestral connection real important, but I want to keep my Abrahamic name, he (un)consciously says, he either does not care so much about his ancestral tradition, or he still values his connection to his Abrahamic tradition. To me, when one gives ones children foreign name, than one really says one's origin does not matter. Who cares if my name comes from my family, my people, or that of the milkman, it is just a label.

Many modern people have indeed lost the connection with their ancestors traditions. Which I believe is actually the purpose of giving people foreign names. When people are enlisted in Abrahamic religions they are purposely given new names. The process is considered very important and called baptizing. They do not say to the person, do not worry, it is "just a label". Why not? Because it is not just a label. When you are given this new name this confirms your allegiance to this new community, which is no longer your ancestral community.

Lets say a Christian would take on a new name, lets say Mohamed. He tells his Christian community members: Hey, I changed my name to Mohamed, it means nothing, I just liked the sound of it. Will he be looked on the same in his Christian community? Will they have the same feeling of belonging? No, people would not believe him, Because people take on a name as an expression of their identity, and when they change their name, that is an expression of an identity change.

He is now part of this new community. One could try this out and name one’s children Mohamed, Ali, Aisa and see if they get the same treatment in the Christian community. After all, it is just a label. Yes to the less spiritual person names may be just labels. But to the spiritual people names carry an important spiritual significance. In fact names express deep connection, love.

Do most people consider the names of their children just labels? Some egotistic pop stars seem to do so and give their children outragious names. Do their children like that? No they often hate that. Why? because it makes them different and they want to belong. Because a name is all about belonging. And belonging is about identity.

The revival of Paganism has everything to do with people seeking identity in a world in which people are rapidly becoming numbers. In the Roman slave system the identity of slaves was actively suppressed. When giving people all over the empire the same names, it helps diminish their cultural identity. One of the reasons Christianity could grow in the Roman empire is that nearly half of the people in the Roman empire were slaves taken away from their homeland, family, culture and traditions. They had been turned in spiritual orphans looking for a new identity. Christianity provided that, an identity for people having lost their tradition. These people accepted the new general Roman identity (Roman catholicism, Catholic = general). But non-slaves were very stubborn in giving up their own identity and had to be given special treatment. In fact it took them many centuries to stamp out peoples traditions and turn them in general Romans

We still live in the continuation of the Roman and Arab empires and both are still spreading their influence over other nations and go on destroying peoples traditional identities. And it is done both subtle and in the most brutal ways. When for instance IS destroys age old monuments in Syria that is another act to cut people ties with their past. They must be Muslims and nothing but Muslims. That is the only identity that they are allowed to have. And if Christians took away the children of Aboriginals and brought them up in Christian homes with Christian names, that was to destroy their own identity too.

Is a name just a label for most parents? I do not think so. Actually most people give a lot of consideration how they name their children. That is why we have books and websites where People can look up the meaning of names. No mother will give a baby a name that actually means: "He who will hate his mother", or "he who will meet great misfortune". No parent will do that, even if they are convinced, it is just a label. Because even the least spiritual people feel that is does not abode well. Or as the Romans would say: Nomen est Omen. A name is an omen, sign, harbringer, forerunner, prediction. We can feel there is more to name than just a label.

For more spiritual people, like many Pagans are, these names are important. Giving people names is always an important ritual in Pagan traditions.

 

[Aštra’el]

Contrary to the anti-Abrahamic tone of the OP, I find there to be many awesome names in Abrahamic lore... especially when we get into the Abrahamic pantheons of demons and angels. Samael, Michael, Uriel, Azriel, Gabriel, Kerubiel, Astaroth, Lilith, Na'amah, Asmodeous, Azazel, Bael, Belial, Iblis, Lucifer, Satan... etc

Of course, some namings and culture would be absorbed from other spiritual-religious systems, but such tends to happen as religions grow and evolve.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In my view,

Pagan religions have little to do with ideological systems. It is about the spiritual connection with the ancestors, one's people, the Land, local spirits, customs, traditions. Sure, Pagans create great poetic stories that are told and retold with great joy but nothing people have to accept as the only truth.

Let us rather look at the spiritual side. People first Names are very important spiritually for the Pagan. American Indian names are given to children according to the nature of their spirit, people can feel that in a child. Germanic names are much the same. Sadly the beautiful Germanic names were largely replaced by Biblical names to murder their soul. What nonsense to give a person a Roman, Arab, Jewish foreign name when he is of Germanic, Gaelic, Greek etc descend. It is a way to create spiritual slaves.

Why call someone from Germanic descent John? His ancestry does not lie in Israel. Call your son Bertold (Magnificent ruler), Bertrand (Magnificent Shield), Dagobert (Beautiful day) etc. Because words have spiritual content too and if well chosen can strengthen the carrier and connect him to his ancestors.

People sometimes even carry secret names only known to true friends. Because as we all know a name can also be damaged if people start to speak ill of it. It carries a reputation. Knowing someones name also gives some power over the person. Because you can call people by their name. If you speak out someones name he will pay you attention. You can also invoke spirits by calling their name. And the names themselves tell about the aspect of the spirit you want to invoke.

For instance people often have the idea the ancients would simply worship the Sun. In reality Pagans would often worship certain roles of the Sun as separate entities. It is a certain role/quality they are interested in, not so much the being as a whole. That is not strange. We ourselves play many roles in our life, like parent, sister, brother, child, colleague,master, student, friend, lover , etc. When people talk to us they will talk to us in the particular role we are playing, and that sometimes goes along with a special name or a title, that invokes the right role in us. It is no different with other spirits.

A good way to start a new identity as a Pagan is to take on a Pagan name that suits your spirit. A name that brings your inner spirit out. A name that also connects you to your ancestors.

The last can be troublesome if your ancestors have been given Christian names for centuries. To connect to the ancestors you would have to give your children a Christian name again. But many people these days choose feel-good names from all over the world. Pagans could try to give their children Pagan names that express the same meaning as the Christian names of their ancestors.

Now Abrahamic names are often nasty. For instance John comes from Hebrew Yochanan meaning something like "Yahwey is gracious" (Eek). See how you are secretly spiritually bound to a foreign God?

And this God is not one most people would want to associate with. In Germanic tradition he would be closest to Loki, in Greek tradition to Kronos, in Roman tradition Saturn. A God associated with Agriculture but also known as trickster God, and associated with the Planet Saturn. He was venerated on Saturnday or Saturday (Jewish Sabath). He was highly venerated by both Romans and Jews. The Romans believed that he had fled to Rome and was given asylum by their ancient King Janus. Their Saturnalia (later Christmas) were their greatest festivities, in which slaves and masters did a role reversal.

This God is a trickster. And the Planet Saturn is in most Pagan traditions connected with bad luck and evil. Kronos was by the Greek regarded as the God that brought evil into the world when he castrated his father Uranus and took over his power, and also ate his own children. That is why his fate was to lose power to his Son(!) by trickery again. Those kind of things interested people in ancient times, and people like Hindus and Jews are still aware of the roles that Spirits play.

You want to become a Pagan?
It is a good idea to find a name that expresses your spirit, gives it power, and connects you to your ancestry. One that helps you stop being the spiritual orphan we have been made into by "Demon worshipers" (Demon = power-hungry spirit/God) that gave us names that tied us to an oppressive God. What Christians call bondage. If you want to be free of bondage, break the bondage of the name first. By the way, the underlying Gods are not intrinsically evil, but they also have Dark sides in which they play the role of Demons. In Abrahamic religions their megalomaniac egotist aspect (I am the only one) is revered. This aspect is called by supremacists to bring submission to other peoples... Gods, like people, have different sides to their character and can play different roles.

As long as you consider yourself a John you will be at the mercy/grace of a fear mongering Jahweh, because that is the spiritual connection. Call yourself "Paul"? It is a Roman name meaning "small" and "humble". You want to be small and humble? Call yourself Paul. Their God will humble you. All these names are full of spiritual meaning, to keep people submissive.

If Pagans want their own power back they should to carry Pagan names that go with their true spirit.

What do you think?

Cassandra you have a good point. I'd like to add most Pagan and pagan names are not self-given. The community gives that child a name and sometimes that name is either at birth or when that child reaches an age of initiation into whatever part of life they graduated into (teen, adulthood, etc). I know neopagans can self-give their name and do whatever. On the other hand most pagan traditions are community. So the names come from family and/or from community.

From a cultural perspective, say Deaf culture, a hearing person going into Deaf culture (just as any other minority cultures, Pagan included) cannot give themselves a name-sign. Only the Deaf community can give a hearing person a name sign. Some people who grown up in pagan families that take up other religions still have their family name if they wish to keep it. Depending on the country, unlike America where we take from our fathers last name, other countries take on from their town name.

So basically, it would be commonly disrespectful to "to take on a Pagan name that suits your spirit. A name that brings your inner spirit out. A name that also connects you to your ancestors." It's more of a family and/or communal thing. Like I found out my family name but, of course, Christian.

Of course pagans can do what they choose, but from a cultural rather than modern insight, names aren't self-given.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean, my middle name: Carlita is Spanish so most likely Christian. My first name is Hebrew. All my family I know so far are Christian. So, finding a name that goes with my spirit would make sense but it would be Christian. I guess it depends on how one sees the cultural-norm of name given. Whether if a Pagan and pantheon wants to mirror cultural practices by getting a name from their community or if a neopagan or even pagan in general rather self-name themselves. But it's not just labels if one really puts spiritual significance to the name they take up.

 

[Cassandra]

Contrary to the anti-Abrahamic tone of the OP, I find there to be many awesome names in Abrahamic lore... especially when we get into the Abrahamic pantheons of demons and angels. Samael, Michael, Uriel, Azriel, Gabriel, Kerubiel, Astaroth, Lilith, Na'amah, Asmodeous, Azazel, Bael, Belial, Iblis, Lucifer, Satan... etc

Of course, some namings and culture would be absorbed from other spiritual-religious systems, but such tends to happen as religions grow and evolve.

My view:

Those are nice Semitic names for people of the Semitic tradition who feel special connection with the Skygod El, these days also known as Allah, but previously also known as Uranus and Ahura Mazda. El should not be confused with later Jahweh. Temple priests fused gods to create Gods with an ever bigger domain and allow a bigger customer base and be more competitive to the other Temples. It is no wonder it ended up in one god giving them total monopoly.

The gods thus created are no longer natural spirits with a specific domain but become a "supernatural" abstract entity that only exist in the mind. They have to be believed in to come alive. To me as a Pagan those Gods are not spirits of natural phenomena.

Besides the most revered spirits for my Pagan ancestors were not the spirits of big natural phenomena, but spirits much more near to them. The spirits of their ancestors and local natural spirits. Who do you want to call when your car breaks down? Your family or best friends or the all-powerful president of the United States? Whose phone number is in your list? Whose name do you want to wear, that of your ancestors or some supremacy god?

Supremacy gods were important for conquering people. for instance the also Semitic Assyrian Kings would force slain people to worship their city god as part of the subjugation. To turn people into slaves and destroy their separate identity begins with making them forget their ancestors.

I want you to do me a favor. Go to the Jewish and Islam forum and ask them if they are willing to take on beautiful names like Thor and Wodan. I am interested in their reactions.

 

[Cassandra]

Cassandra you have a good point. I'd like to add most Pagan and pagan names are not self-given. The community gives that child a name and sometimes that name is either at birth or when that child reaches an age of initiation into whatever part of life they graduated into (teen, adulthood, etc). I know neopagans can self-give their name and do whatever. On the other hand most pagan traditions are community. So the names come from family and/or from community.

From a cultural perspective, say Deaf culture, a hearing person going into Deaf culture (just as any other minority cultures, Pagan included) cannot give themselves a name-sign. Only the Deaf community can give a hearing person a name sign. Some people who grown up in pagan families that take up other religions still have their family name if they wish to keep it. Depending on the country, unlike America where we take from our fathers last name, other countries take on from their town name.

So basically, it would be commonly disrespectful to "to take on a Pagan name that suits your spirit. A name that brings your inner spirit out. A name that also connects you to your ancestors." It's more of a family and/or communal thing. Like I found out my family name but, of course, Christian.

Of course pagans can do what they choose, but from a cultural rather than modern insight, names aren't self-given.

My view:

It is true we receive our names mostly from others but it is not invented by the community. The most important name is our call name, our FIRST name. That is given by our parents. Parents use their own spirituality to find a good name for their child, they often weigh several names until they suddenly feel this is it! That is a spiritual process in itself. Some simply give names of grandparents to humor them.

But we also give first names to ourselves. For instance when people do not like their first name, it is not uncommon they use another. In some Pagan traditions people are asked to choose their own name by identifying to what spirit they belong. The first names calls our spirit and it is very important that it is in line with our inner spirit.

The last names are also important as they tell us to what clan, stock, family we belong. In rural areas it tells people a lot when you have a certain surname. I can give you names from my town that really spell trouble and others that are really good families. People are often proud of their surnames.

Then we also have nicknames. Those are given by the community. Where I live there is still a living tradition of that. Local people are often called by their nicknames. To have one means people accept you as one of them. The names are often very strange and only understood by insiders. I once told a story about some thing and we all laughed our hearts out. And that thing was given to me as my nickname.

Now the first name calls your spirit, if you are no longer worshiping the particular god in your name, you should change your name. Take for instance Tutankhaten when he changed his worship from Aten to Amun, he changed his name to Tutankhamun. for Tutankhaten means "Living image of Aten" and Tutankhamun means "Living image of Amun".

Why is that important? Because when we die, our spirit wants to unite with a pure spirit. One that will lead us. It is therefor quite normal that people who are close to a particular spirit take a name based on that spirit, so they can find each other more easily.

Christian tradition makes a big deal of that as well, that is why they give people the last sacrament to bring them to Jesus. Mother Theresa did that in a real evil way, giving this sacrament to dying Hindu people against their will. She was more interested in bringing them to Jesus ASAP while in her control than feeding and curing them and taking up their Pagan lives again.

I am not surprised that people who have mixed beliefs want to keep on to their Abrahamist names, but they should not spread the idea on a Pagan forum that this is also the right thing for a true Pagan to do and Pagans should not change their Abrahamic names to Pagan ones. A dual identity should not be used for promoting Christian beliefs on a Pagan forum.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My view:

It is true we receive our names mostly from others but it is not invented by the community. The most important name is our call name, our FIRST name. That is given by our parents. Parents use their own spirituality to find a good name for their child, they often weigh several names until they suddenly feel this is it! That is a spiritual process in itself. Some simply give names of grandparents to humor them.

But we also give first names to ourselves. For instance when people do not like their first name, it is not uncommon they use another. In some Pagan traditions people are asked to choose their own name by identifying to what spirit they belong. The first names calls our spirit and it is very important that it is in line with our inner spirit.

The last names are also important as they tell us to what clan, stock, family we belong. In rural areas it tells people a lot when you have a certain surname. I can give you names from my town that really spell trouble and others that are really good families. People are often proud of their surnames.

Than we also have nicknames. Those are given by the community. Where I live there is still a living tradition of that. Local people are often called by their nicknames. To have one means people accept you as one of them. The names are often very strange and only understood by insiders. I once told a story about some thing and we all laughed our hearts out. And that thing was given to me as my nickname.

Now the first name calls your spirit, if you are no longer worshiping the particular god in your name, you should change your name. Take for instance Tutankhaten when he changed his worship from Aten to Amun, he changed his name to Tutankhamun. for Tutankhaten means "Living image of Aten" and Tutankhamun means "Living image of Amun".

Why is that important? Because when we die, our spirit wants to unite with a pure spirit. One that will lead us. It is therefor quite normal that people who are close to a particular spirit take a name based on that spirit, so they can find each other more easily.

Christian tradition makes a big deal of that as well, that is why they give people the last sacrament to bring them to Jesus. Mother Theresa did that in a real evil way, giving this sacrament to dying Hindu people against their will. She was more interested in bringing them to Jesus ASAP that than feeding and curing them and taking up their Pagan lives again.

I am not surprised that people who have mixed beliefs want to keep on to their Abrahamist names, but they should not spread the idea on a Pagan forum that this is also the right thing for a true Pagan to do and Pagans should not change their names.

It's personal experience of knowing many pagan and Pagan people not just people online. It also comes from knowing people of many cultures that have kept their family (not the western definition of the word) that would be technically pagan. I have a christian last name because of where I was born and raised. My mother and father side of the family are christian and have pagan (lower -p) practices that aren't christian whatsoever. So "keeping our name" is very important regardless the origin. It has nothing to do with whether its christian, pagan, I don't know Muslim. It goes beyond that. But in America we go by immediate family. Other countries do not do that.

Learning this was a rude awakening for me as a pagan; and, something I have to accept. I have to accept part of my family is christian. I have to accept that part of my family is pagan. I have to accept the mixture of "unknown" beliefs in my family. Because it's all a part of me.

So, to me it is rude to take up a spiritual name that isn't mine to take. Unless I was neo-pagan or eclectic and decide to make up my own, but I'm not. I don't care for cultural appropriation.



But I just replied because I felt you had a good point in your other post.

 

[Aštra’el]

Being a pagan does not require one to be anti-Abrahamic, nor does it require one to purge one's spiritual-religious system and Weltanschauung of all Abrahamic culture. In fact I feel in many instances a pagan is better suited to understanding some of the more esoteric elements hidden within Abrahamic lore and culture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Being a pagan does not require one to be anti-Abrahamic, nor does it require one to purge one's spiritual-religious system and Weltanschauung of all Abrahamic culture. In fact I feel in many instances a pagan is better suited to understanding some of the more esoteric elements hidden within Abrahamic lore and culture.

Yeah. You can learn a lot about paganism in Christianity (which is basically Roman and Hebrew native beliefs). I don't know about Islam and Judaism though.

 

[Cassandra]

I was giving my view why our first name is important spiritually for Pagans and that is what you reacted to. Then I find this comment rather shocking:

So basically, it would be commonly disrespectful to "to take on a Pagan name that suits your spirit. A name that brings your inner spirit out. A name that also connects you to your ancestors." It's more of a family and/or communal thing.

My view:

We were not talking last names here. The first name identifies you, the last name only the family. The last name has no spiritual meaning. And the last name is the one name that is definitely not given by the community.

Nor do last names connect us to our ancestors but rather disconnect us. Not so long ago people would not have last names and would simply say I am x son of y son of x son of z son of y etc. Now that I call a connection!

One of the things that made the Romans unique is that their large families (gens) would adopt a lot of outsiders that were seen as useful for strengthening the family and gave them full rights. That is how Octavius, the adopted son of Caesar, could lay rightful claims on the throne and succeed him as Emperor Augustus. The Christian community is based on the Roman family as power structure, not on blood ties like with Pagans.

That is why the traditional Pagan community is very different from a Roman/Christian community. The Roman Christian community is ruled by a very authoritarian father figure, the "Patrias Familias" who does not need to be one's real ancestor. That is why the pastor is still called "father", and why the pope is called "papa" (father). And is why their god is a "father in heaven" too. Same authoritarian patriarchal power structure. And that is why Christians have a fatherland (patria) they have to serve as real "patriots", and not a motherland (matria) that "matters" to them and also cares for them.

Christian community is basically Roman culture imposed on Pagans in the Roman empire. By giving people Roman/Christian first names they were further spiritually disconnected from their Pagan heritage.

I do not write these things to bash Christians but to create awareness for the deeper division between Christian/Roman and Pagan traditions. Christians have their basically Roman traditions, and Pagans have their ancestors. And Pagans should not have to abide by Roman, Jewish, or Arab traditions.

It is vital for Pagans to understand how they differ from foreign culture that was and continues to be imposed on them, often unknowingly because most people do not even know anymore. But Pagans are a small group of people seeking to revive Ancestral traditions in a small way, because they value them.

When I hear a politician say: We have to defend our Judo-Christian tradition, I think, what? Those are not our real traditions! Those are the traditions that are imposed on us. That is what keeps this money and power driven society running and makes us little cogwheels in the big machine. That is why we hear every day about economy. Work, work, work and go to heaven when your life is spent. Happiness is reserved for the afterlife.

Does anyone really believe American Indians got a better life when Christians came along to save them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was giving my view why our first name is important spiritually for Pagans and that is what you reacted to. Then I find this comment rather shocking:


My view:

We were not talking last names here. The first name identifies you, the last name only the family. The last name has no spiritual meaning. And the last name is the one name that is definitely not given by the community.

Nor do last names connect us to our ancestors but rather disconnect us. Not so long ago people would not have last names and would simply say I am x son of y son of x son of z son of y etc. Now that I call a connection!

One of the things that made the Romans unique is that their large families (gens) would adopt a lot of outsiders that were seen as useful for strengthening the family and gave them full rights. That is how Octavius, the adopted son of Caesar, could lay rightful claims on the throne and succeed him as Emperor Augustus. The Christian community is based on the Roman family as power structure, not on blood ties like with Pagans.

That is why the traditional Pagan community is very different from a Roman/Christian community. The Roman Christian community is ruled by a very authoritarian father figure, the "Patrias Familias" who does not need to be one's real ancestor. That is why the pastor is still called "father", and why the pope is called "papa" (father). And is why their god is a "father in heaven" too. Same authoritarian patriarchal power structure. And that is why Christians have a fatherland (patria) they have to serve as real "patriots", and not a motherland (matria) that "matters" to them and also cares for them.

Christian community is basically Roman culture imposed on Pagans in the Roman empire. By giving people Roman/Christian first names they were further spiritually disconnected from their Pagan heritage.

I do not write these things to bash Christians but to create awareness for the deeper division between Christian/Roman and Pagan traditions. Christians have their basically Roman traditions, and Pagans have their ancestors. And Pagans should not have to abide by Roman, Jewish, or Arab traditions.

It is vital for Pagans to understand how they differ from foreign culture that was and continues to be imposed on them, often unknowingly because most people do not even know anymore. But Pagans are a small group of people seeking to revive Ancestral traditions in a small way, because they value them.

When I hear a politician say: We have to defend our Judo-Christian tradition, I think, what? Those are not our real traditions! Those are the traditions that are imposed on us. That is what keeps this money and power driven society running and makes us little cogwheels in the big machine. That is why we hear every day about economy. Work, work, work and go to heaven when your life is spent. Happiness is reserved for the afterlife.

Does anyone really believe American Indians got a better life when Christians came along to save them?

You have to quote me. I didn't get the reply.

My whole point before reading your post is the "taking up a pagan name" unless one is making up their own name in many pagan traditions is considered a no-no. Since I live in America, I can see a huge difference between how Americans value their first (and last) names compared to other cultures pagan or not.

But my original reply to you wasn't a debate or argumentative. I said you had a good point and I mentioned that pagan names are not self-given. It was a rude shock to me understanding people from different cultures talk with me about their beliefs and cultural outlook religious and not. It also "put me in my place" in knowing what I can "take" and what I cannot. That's why I dislike eclecticism and things of that nature. That's my view.

This is all coming from my experience and my worldview. You still feel I have mixed beliefs and that outlook reflects the tone of your posts. Please just accept my compliment on your good articulated post and if you'd like to debate about it, create a thread outside the DIR.

 

[Cassandra]

Being a pagan does not require one to be anti-Abrahamic, nor does it require one to purge one's spiritual-religious system and Weltanschauung of all Abrahamic culture. In fact I feel in many instances a pagan is better suited to understanding some of the more esoteric elements hidden within Abrahamic lore and culture.

Have you asked on the Jewish and Muslim forum if they object to giving their children names of Pagan Gods?

 

[Aštra’el]

I am not surprised that people who have mixed beliefs want to keep on to their Abrahamist names, but they should not spread the idea on a Pagan forum that this is also the right thing for a true Pagan to do and Pagans should not change their Abrahamic names to Pagan ones. A dual identity should not be used for promoting Christian beliefs on a Pagan forum.

A "true pagan"?

 

[Cassandra]

This is all coming from my experience and my worldview. You still feel I have mixed beliefs and that outlook reflects the tone of your posts. Please just accept my compliment on your good articulated post and if you'd like to debate about it, create a thread outside the DIR.

Well you recently wrote on the Catholic forum:

I know I may get in trouble for posting here, but I will always be Catholic regardless.

I guess you are in trouble

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well you recently wrote on the Catholic forum:



I guess you are in trouble

How does that relate to my post? I'm not being cross with you. I'm not debating with you. I'm just saying you have a good point. Most pagan traditions do not have self-given names. This isn't from books but personal experience and relation to people who are pagan. Pagan with a small -p.

If you're talking about Pagan as in Eureopean traditions, most cultures are a family unit when it comes to religion. It's just in America and probably and a few other countries that separate religion from everyday life and relationship with people.

If we are to treat people with the respect they are due, we would be acting like other pagans who, like many I speak with, care about other people even more than themselves. Without that level of respect, in my opinion, how can one call themselves pagan.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

EDIT: If this helps puts things in perspective Cassandra, I'm pagan not Pagan. Thanks to @Quintessence for distinguishing the two. I don't call myself either. So, just keep that in mind. I think maybe your concern would be more on the Paganism forums not neopagan and revival.

@Cassandra I finally read your full post. I have to separate each paragraph so I can actively read it. Guys it's not a debate. I don't like skimming over threads. However, this post is long so I hope you take the time to actively read it regardless if you disagree.

First, my whole point of replying to your first post was you made a good articulated argument. It's a compliment.

My view:

Everyone has their views. It's healthy as long as they don't impose on other people's views (not talking directly to you), actual people's views, then it's fine. Just don't do as the Romans do.

I am not surprised that people who have mixed beliefs want to keep on to their Abrahamist names, but they should not spread the idea on a Pagan forum that this is also the right thing for a true Pagan to do and Pagans should not change their Abrahamic names to Pagan ones. A dual identity should not be used for promoting Christian beliefs on a Pagan forum.

What is a true pagan? ​

Also, if you're attacking me, how do you know me personally to judge what my present beliefs are compared to my former?

On that note: The Catholic forum you quoted, not recently, December 5th, 2015 (wow, it's been a year almost and you still remember)

I think you need to read the whole thread. We were all helping Frank out with what he is going through. Here is what I wrote:

" One younger priest spent three hours with me during my confession. An older priest yelled at me for my asking him if he was alright because he was falling to sleep during confession."

This was, what, 2012. We're 2016 going into 2017 now. This is all past tense. I have posts that explain my beliefs in full and each one says talks in past tense. What I used to practice. Now that I am not a practicing Catholic. I don't take the Eucharist anymore. If you like to discuss how about my beliefs, type my name in the search box and I think I said it in interfaith (before it was interfaith) and another in journal, I'm not sure.​

We were not talking last names here. The first name identifies you, the last name only the family. The last name has no spiritual meaning. And the last name is the one name that is definitely not given by the community.

How can I put this. From off-line knowledge and experience, pagans have three to four names. They have their first name, some without middle name, their last name, and their family name. Take Gautauma Sidhartha Shakyamni. The Buddha's first name is Guatama, last name Sidhartha, and family clans name is Shakyamuni. He used to practice native beliefs of his day (pagan religions) but branched off and found his own enlightenment and so on. America and European countries are different than other pagan countries who still have beliefs not influenced by Christianity and Islam. I mean, when I was young, I asked my friend what her name was and she didn't want to tell me. She gave me an American name instead.

​

So it depends. What you said may be right. That's not the issue or debate. Just be open that everyone has different experiences and gains knowledge than others. Also, age differences influence what a person knows based on what someone has experienced.

Nor do last names connect us to our ancestors but rather disconnect us. Not so long ago people would not have last names and would simply say I am x son of y son of x son of z son of y etc. Now that I call a connection!

People didn't have last names they had and have family names. In America we call them last names. My last name goes back many generations. I am not part of a clan, tribe, or community; and, I am born and raised American, so I refer to my name of heritage as a last name.

One of the things that made the Romans unique is that their large families (gens) would adopt a lot of outsiders that were seen as useful for strengthening the family and gave them full rights. That is how Octavius, the adopted son of Caesar, could lay rightful claims on the throne and succeed him as Emperor Augustus. The Christian community is based on the Roman family as power structure, not on blood ties like with Pagans.

This is something new. I know nothing about Christianity in regards to history other than it's mixed with Roman paganisms and Jewish beliefs.

That is why the traditional Pagan community is very different from a Roman/Christian community. The Roman Christian community is ruled by a very authoritarian father figure, the "Patrias Familias" who does not need to be one's real ancestor. That is why the pastor is still called "father", and why the pope is called "papa" (father). And is why their god is a "father in heaven" too. Same authoritarian patriarchal power structure. And that is why Christians have a fatherland (patria) they have to serve as real "patriots", and not a motherland (matria) that "matters" to them and also cares for them.

There are many Pagan communities. There is no "traditional" and "true" Pagan community. Almost any Pagan would tell you that all around the world. Everything else is new to me. I'll take your word for it for now.

Christian community is basically Roman culture imposed on Pagans in the Roman empire. By giving people Roman/Christian first names they were further spiritually disconnected from their Pagan heritage.

I never had interest in Christianity and it's history. I learned about it and that's one of the many reasons I do not practice anymore. But the difference between you and I is I never had bad experiences and bias of Christianity. I just don't care for the faith, Bible, and history that I know of.

I do not write these things to bash Christians but to create awareness for the deeper division between Christian/Roman and Pagan traditions. Christians have their basically Roman traditions, and Pagans have their ancestors. And Pagans should not have to abide by Roman, Jewish, or Arab traditions.

"I do not write these things to bash Christians"???? Um. No further comment. You can vent in the other thread I created Okay Cassandra: Let it out your system.

It is vital for Pagans to understand how they differ from foreign culture that was and continues to be imposed on them, often unknowingly because most people do not even know anymore. But Pagans are a small group of people seeking to revive Ancestral traditions in a small way, because they value them.

Exactly. When you put down another person's Pagan ancestral beliefs and practices generally or specifically it's doing exactly what Christians and Muslims do. Maybe you can rephrase how you want to express to Pagans about your view of things. The Christian bias is disrupting your thoughts.

Does anyone really believe American Indians got a better life when Christians came along to save them?

Nope. My family are scared to talk about their heritage thinking that the government will send them back to their reservations. My other family thinks witchcraft is from the devil but then practices things neopagans would call witchcraft. The definitions are becoming mixed up. Their not European, so they are not practicing witchcraft; but, I know my Christian Christian co-worker puts all practices not in the Bible of the devil witchcraft, so your issue may be with those people. I'd get to know your fellow Pagans and understand where they come from since there are so many Pagan communities that to put them all in one Pagan (rather than pagan) umbrella is inappropriate.

If we are to treat people with the respect they are due, we would be acting like other pagans who, like many I speak with, care about other people even more than themselves. Without that level of respect, in my opinion, how can one call themselves pagan.