What is More Important?

[jojom]

For a Christian Jesus will always be the answer. Of course if a person truly is change by God you'll be able to tell by their fruits

I presume then that these "fruits" are unlike any others. Care to tell us what they are?


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[blueman]

Taking Jesus as one's savior, but being a selfish *******.
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OR

Living a compassionate, giving life, but rejecting Jesus as one's savior?

​

And no in-between stuff, or claims that one couldn't take Jesus as one's savior and be a selfish *******---I've run into such characters.


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Salvation comes through Christ and Him alone. Overcoming one's personal issues is a lifelong process (selfishness, jealousy, anger, etc.) and if we aim to trust God, we can overcome strongholds associated with a sinful nature. Rejection of Christ is a non-starter. You will not earn God's favor by just being a good person, but rejecting Christ. Your self-righteousness will always be mitigated by a bad flaw that you have and is a consistent part of your character.

 

[Eileen]

The bible says that in the end, God judges us by our hearts.

But if I personally had to choose between belief or morality, I'd pick belief as the most important.

Can you give me biblical references that actually says God judges our hearts and can you tell me what that means to you?

 

[Thana]

Can you give me biblical references that actually says God judges our hearts and can you tell me what that means to you?

1 Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Jeremiah 17:10- "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
Proverbs 4:23 - "Guard your heart above all else, for it is the source of life."

I guess I like to think that regardless of everything, the heart is what determines our fate.

 

[jojom]

Salvation comes through Christ and Him alone. Overcoming one's personal issues is a lifelong process (selfishness, jealousy, anger, etc.) and if we aim to trust God, we can overcome strongholds associated with a sinful nature. Rejection of Christ is a non-starter. You will not earn God's favor by just being a good person, but rejecting Christ. Your self-righteousness will always be mitigated by a bad flaw that you have and is a consistent part of your character.

Not talking about being self-righteousness, but being a *******. Can I accept Jesus as my savior and still safely be a *******?

bas·tard (băs′tərd)
n.

a. A person considered to be mean or contemptible.

b. An obnoxious or despicable person​

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[dogfishparisi]

If you're not a fundie you certainly talk like one.

And what of those who have nothing telling them "what they know in their hearts already"? Your presumption is repugnant.

FYI for future reference, I don't believe there's such a thing as free will.

And I think it's intellectually dishonest to ignore reason if favor of some feel-good pleasure one gets from latching onto a belief.

Say again?

Only toward the underpinnings of religion: unquestioning faith in the warmth and security of promise.


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You are an intelligent person, and the answers will find you. I don't mean that in a condescending way. There is one truth...but many lenses from which it is viewed. Your ideas will shift and change and I hope you will be open minded enough to see the err in your initial judgement. I only speak truth from my perspective. It is as valid as any other- to think otherwise is to subscribe to supremacy.

The mind is easily manipulated bit our feeling nature is left unconvinced. Listen.

 

[Eileen]

1 Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Jeremiah 17:10- "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
Proverbs 4:23 - "Guard your heart above all else, for it is the source of life."

I guess I like to think that regardless of everything, the heart is what determines our fate.

1 Sam 16:7 … but the LORD looks (sees, inspects, perceives, considers) the heart.

I do believe that HaShem considers our hearts- (Strong’s Definitions לֵב lêb, labe; a form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the center of anything) when we come to judgement but the other verses you sited (Jer 17:10 and Pro 4:23) tell us that He also considers our work or deeds. It is a package deal if you will.

There are numerous verses that specifically say we will be judged by our works and although some of Paul’s writings, as we have them in English, seem to indicate that we do not need works to be saved these verses still say that we will be judged by our works. That is not to say the intentions of our heart do not matter but they are bound up with our deeds.

If you say, “Surely we did not know this, “Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Pro 24:12

The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works. Amo 8:7

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Mat 16:27

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord rewards him according to his works: 2Ti 4:14

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:12

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:13

I think in the final analysis of all of the writings that make up our Bible we cannot separate actions, deeds, or works(good or evil) from the judgment of God.

 

[JoStories]

I don't consider myself a very moral person either.

Belief can be transformative. Morality... not so much.

So taking this further, one can be that selfish ******* as long as one believes in Jesus? And no morals??? So murder and rape are just dandy, no? Morals are as necessary, IMO, as air to breathe.

 

[dogfishparisi]

If you're not a fundie you certainly talk like one.

And what of those who have nothing telling them "what they know in their hearts already"? Your presumption is repugnant.

FYI for future reference, I don't believe there's such a thing as free will.

And I think it's intellectually dishonest to ignore reason if favor of some feel-good pleasure one gets from latching onto a belief.

Say again?

Only toward the underpinnings of religion: unquestioning faith in the warmth and security of promise.


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All you do is argue. I don't have time for this nonsense. If I was a fundamentalist I'd say acceptance of Christ is mandatory. Instead I've said that I believe good people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are saved according to scripture. Basically... I'm tired of your nonsensical jibes and taunts. Good back and re-read my comments and ask me something of value or please just stop.

... and when I talk about what people know in their hearts I am talking about our inherent sense of right and wrong, which has been scientifically observed and studied. People are overwhelmingly 'good' and innocent to 'evil' at birth, it is then only a matter of time before they are corrupted. There are exceptions but most children start out good, and would take the lessons of Christ as obvious. It's only later that we gotta so far astray that it sounds absurd.

 

[JoStories]

You change your morality.. Your morality doesn't change you.

IMO, it certainly can. Morals are the foundations of societal life. Without them, we would be back to being cave men and living primitive lives. I believe morals can be transformative. A moral can be to live compassionately. To be kind and sincere. You seriously don't see those as positive changes?

 

[JoStories]

Well, Buddha is dead, Krishna is dead, but I believe Jesus is alive and resurrected from the dead so it from my perspective it is Him alone who offers the way of victory over death and eternal life.

You may believe that but for me, the essence of the Buddha is alive and enlightened. For the Hindus here, your statement that Krishna is dead is very insulting. Would you be ok with someone saying Jesus is dead and never coming back, meant to insult you? I thought not.

 

[Thanda]

I would choose the first one. If Jesus has the power to make us like God as he claimed then the selfish ******* can be healed of his selfishness and become as even better person than the compassionate person living a giving life.

 

[jojom]

All you do is argue.

Evidently you don't know where you are. FYI, you're in the "General Religious Debates" forum, where argument is expected. Don't want to argue then don't come here. Simple as that.

I don't have time for this nonsense.

More to the point I believe, you're unable to establish any counter arguments. But don't feel bad, quite a few believers find themselves having to bail out. Kind of comes with the territory.

If I was a fundamentalist I'd say acceptance of Christ is mandatory. Instead I've said that I believe good people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are saved according to scripture. Basically... I'm tired of your nonsensical jibes and taunts. Good back and re-read my comments and ask me something of value or please just stop.

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if all you had to do here is preach to the choir, but that's not the way it works dogfish. Want to make statements that go relatively unchallenged then I suggest you stick to the DIR forums.

... and when I talk about what people know in their hearts I am talking about our inherent sense of right and wrong,

So when you say

"The point is this; all good people, who are loving and empathetic and strive to be good and help others should not REJECT teachings that tell them what they know in their hearts already."​

you're implying that people who know right from wrong should listen to the teachings of someone who tells them to know right from wrong? If I know that 1 + 1 = 2 why do I need anyone to tell me that 1 + 1 = 2? You're not making any sense here.


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[JoStories]

I would choose the first one. If Jesus has the power to make us like God as he claimed then the selfish ******* can be healed of his selfishness and become as even better person than the compassionate person living a giving life.

Perhaps true but that can also be achieved through following a Buddhist path as well.

 

[Thanda]

Perhaps true but that can also be achieved through following a Buddhist path as well.

Do the Buddhists teach that we can become perfect: knowing all things and having all power both in heaven and on earth?

 

[tonyfran]

Should I keep my eyes open, & fall into an acid bath
OR
Should I try to avoid falling into the ditch keeping my eyes closed

 

[tonyfran]

Which is more important
Trying to avoid falling off a high slippery cliff, but keeping your eyes closed
OR
Keeping your eyes open & jumping off from a high cliff?

 

[Dhyana]

Not a debate with, but a discussion among Christians.

Those of you "Christians" who pick belief over acts should re-read the gospel of Matthew, particularly Matthew 7, 21-23. If you think all you have to do is believe something and that's it, you're in for a big surprise. I'm no Christian, but I've read the gospels. Pretty clear AFAIC. Being a selfish dick doesn't get you anywhere good no matter what you believe.

 

[Dhyana]

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[psychoslice]

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I never really liked that verse, because every single religion or the varies Christian churches use it against each other, all believing they are the one's who truly know Jesus, ha.