What is objective?

[crossfire]

Yes, all of that is the case. You have just described Sunyata, which itself is empty of self-nature.

But it is because all things are empty that they can be filled. Out of Nothing comes Everything.

The part about 'disenchantment with consciousness' I believe is a reference to personal consciousness, which essentially is 'mind'. One becomes disenchanted with mind because it is rooted in the past, and thus, Identification, and so is dead.* The yogi Patanjaii tells us that:

'yoga (ie; divine union) is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind'

This is the same as 'there is nothing further for this world'

Release refers to release from the illusion of the personal self, 'I'; Identification.​

Pali for that section:
Evaṃ passaṃ bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako rūpasmimpi nibbindati vedanāyapi nibbindati saññāyapi nibbindati saṃkhāresu nibbindati viññāṇasmimpi nibbindati nibbindaṃ virajjati virāgā vimuccati vimuttasmiṃ 'vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ hoti. Khīṇā jāti vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyā'ti pajānātīti.​

Indeed, viññāṇa is associated with individual consciousness, and asmi means "I am," so it looks like your interpretation is correct in regards to it referring to what you call "personal consciousness." Becoming disenchanted with this personal consciousness could also mean objectivity, free from subjective overlay (aka free from delusion--mistaking the subjective for the objective.)​

 

[godnotgod]

Pali for that section:
Evaṃ passaṃ bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako rūpasmimpi nibbindati vedanāyapi nibbindati saññāyapi nibbindati saṃkhāresu nibbindati viññāṇasmimpi nibbindati nibbindaṃ virajjati virāgā vimuccati vimuttasmiṃ 'vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ hoti. Khīṇā jāti vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ nāparaṃ itthattāyā'ti pajānātīti.​

Indeed, viññāṇa is associated with individual consciousness, and asmi means "I am," so it looks like your interpretation is correct in regards to it referring to what you call "personal consciousness." Becoming disenchanted with this personal consciousness could also mean objectivity, free from subjective overlay (aka free from delusion--mistaking the subjective for the objective.)​

...and as I recall, it is the Heart Sutra which refers to 'no-self-view', which is none other than universal view. No-self-view is unborn, uncreated, unconditioned, uncaused.

 

[crossfire]

...and as I recall, it is the Heart Sutra which refers to it as 'no-self-view', which is none other than universal view.

There is also the Sabbasava Sutta:

"[1] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.​

Also, from the Hsin Hsin Ming:

Do not seek the real
But your false views lay down.
Avoid the real and the false
And never search for either.​

 

[godnotgod]

There is also the Sabbasava Sutta:

"[1] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.​

Also, from the Hsin Hsin Ming:

Do not seek the real
But your false views lay down.
Avoid the real and the false
And never search for either.​

In this respect, we could say that it is the real seeking the real, or, as Zennist Cheri Huber put it:

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"

...and in Hindu terms, it is Brahman playing itself as the world via maya and lila, in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

....and lastly, from Buddhism:

"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

footnote: As you noted about the negative emotions being born of the self, Nirvana, which literally means 'to extinguish', is the extinguishing of greed, lust, and avarice, and thus, the self, which, of course, is none other than the seeker.

 

[crossfire]

In this respect, we could say that it is the real seeking the real, or, as Zennist Cheri Huber put it:

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"

...and in Hindu terms, it is Brahman playing itself as the world via maya and lila, in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

....and lastly, from Buddhism:

"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

footnote: As you noted about the negative emotions being born of the self, Nirvana, which literally means 'to extinguish', is the extinguishing of greed, lust, and avarice, and thus, the self, which, of course, is none other than the seeker.

Simsapa Sutta (in its entirety)

Once the Blessed One was staying at forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"

"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"​

 

[godnotgod]

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress':​

Yes indeed, here we have The Four Noble Truths.

Zen's way is to always point back to the self, and in this case, would ask:

"Who is it that is experiencing stress?"

...because the ordinary man thinks there is an experiencer of the experience in a subject/object split when no such agent of the experience actually exists. There is only the experience itself, and the subject is that very experience, and is himself the very solution to the alleviation of stress.

Zen master Shunryu Suzuki used to instruct his students to being their practice in the very middle of their delusion.

"Nothing we see or hear is perfect, and yet there, in the very midst of all of the imperfection, lies Perfect Reality"
Shunryu Suzuki

...and from:

'From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment', by Dogen/Uchiyama

..we have this:

'The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no God or gods before whom people bow down in return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha’s teachings refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at the point where the Self settles naturally upon itself.'

 

[crossfire]

<...>
Zen master Shunryu Suzuki used to instruct his students to being their practice in the very middle of their delusion.

"Nothing we see or hear is perfect, and yet there, in the very midst of all of the imperfection, lies Perfect Reality"
Shunryu Suzuki

...and from:

'From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment', by Dogen/Uchiyama

..we have this:

'The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no God or gods before whom people bow down in return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha’s teachings refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at the point where the Self settles naturally upon itself.'

Hence, there is no need to ask:

"Who is it that is experiencing stress?"
​

Asking this only creates more anxiety to overcome and interferes with perceiving things as they are.

 

[godnotgod]

Hence, there is no need to ask:

"Who is it that is experiencing stress?"
​

Asking this only creates more anxiety to overcome and interferes with perceiving things as they are.

Please note that the quoted text you reference is about the Self, and not the self.

The illusory self must first be detected as such. By asking 'who is it that is experiencing stress?', it is brought to one's attention, thereby preparing a condition for 'the Self to settle naturally upon itself'.

If one continues to believe in the reality of the self, then anxiety will just continue on as well. IOW, the reason one feels metaphysical anxiety to begin with is because of concern over the identity and fate of the self, which is the reason that God, heaven, and hell are created. The notion of a God who is in control superficially and temporarily relieves the self of anxiety, reinforced by a system of reward and punishment. So if one never questions the authenticity of the self, one will simply continue on in one's delusion.

If the authenticity of the self is never questioned, the self itself just continues to believe that it is enlightened and 'sees things as they are'.

Once one's conscious attention is directed at the self, a further question develops:

'Who is it that is asking the question?'

 

[Skwim]

Please note that the quoted text you reference is about the Self, and not the self.

Curious.

self = ?
Self = ?


.​

 

[godnotgod]

Curious.

self = ?
Self = ?


.​

Self: the authentic, awakened Self, or one's true nature, as compared to the fictional self lost in Identification, ie; 'I', 'me', 'mine'. The fictional self is the product of and attachment to one's life accumulation of social indoctrination, imagery, past experiences, etc. all rolled into a single identity we call 'I'.

The Self is the only true reality, hidden within the identity maze of the fictional self.

Try asking: "who is asking about the difference between 'self' and 'Self'?",

and...

"Who is it that lives?"

"Who is it that dies?"

 

[crossfire]

Self: the authentic, awakened Self, or one's true nature, as compared to the fictional self lost in Identification, ie; 'I', 'me', 'mine'. The fictional self is the product of and attachment to one's life accumulation of social indoctrination, imagery, past experiences, etc. all rolled into a single identity we call 'I'.

The Self is the only true reality, hidden within the identity maze of the fictional self.

Try asking: "who is asking about the difference between 'self' and 'Self'?",

and...

"Who is it that lives?"

"Who is it that dies?"

Let's go ahead and cause a bit of anxiety, just for fun:
"Who is it that is asking this question?"

as compared to the fictional self lost in Identification, ie; 'I', 'me', 'mine'.​

 

[crossfire]

Mu.

 

[godnotgod]

Let's go ahead and cause a bit of anxiety, just for fun:
"Who is it that is asking this question?"

as compared to the fictional self lost in Identification, ie; 'I', 'me', 'mine'.​

There is no one asking the question; there is only the asking of the question, without an 'asking agent'.

You observe a whirlpool. Is there a 'whirler' of the whirling water, or is there just whirling water?

 

[crossfire]

There is no one asking the question; there is only the asking of the question, without an 'asking agent'.

You observe a whirlpool. Is there a 'whirler' of the whirling water, or is there just whirling water?

No subjective mind--no sentience--no Buddha nature?

 

[godnotgod]

No subjective mind--no sentience--no Buddha nature?

Yes, Buddha nature but no 'buddha person'. Just pure consciousness seeing things as they are, without an agent of consciousness.

 

[crossfire]

Yes, Buddha nature but no 'buddha person'. Just pure consciousness seeing things as they are, without an agent of consciousness.

Let's go ahead and cause a bit of anxiety, just for fun:
"Who is it that is asking this question?"

as compared to the fictional self lost in Identification, ie; 'I', 'me', 'mine'.​

What do you think about this sutta?

Madhupindika Sutta: The Ball of Honey

 

[Curious George]

All experience is subjective, and thus it is logically impossible to be certain that an objective reality exists. We might have good reasons to believe one exists, but we cannot be certain of it. Consequently, to posit that there exists an objective reality is metaphysical speculation.

Except for objective reality exists by necessity. It may be very different from subjective reality, but if subjective reality exists then objective reality must exist as well. See Kant on the phenomenal world.

 

[crossfire]

Yes, Buddha nature but no 'buddha person'. Just pure consciousness seeing things as they are, without an agent of consciousness.

What is a "sentient being" in the Bodhisattva vow?

 

[godnotgod]

What is a "sentient being" in the Bodhisattva vow?

One as yet still bound in Samsara but having Buddha nature.

 

[crossfire]

One as yet still bound in Samsara but having Buddha nature.

Who is bound? (A question more worthy of attention might be "How are they bound?" That which binds them would then be the means by which they are liberated--their sentience--Buddha Nature.)