What is objective?

[godnotgod]

You are quite right--I don't understand Advaita!

Do you understand that there is a view that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned? That this kind of view is no particular view?

 

[crossfire]

Do you understand that there is a view that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned? That this kind of view is no particular view?

I understand that there is an aspect of our consciousness that is steady in this respect by which we can discern the impermanent phenomena as they arise and pass away. (We don't go unconscious when the mind is clear and free of the impermanent stuff that comes and goes.) I understand that it can be described as "not this phenomenon, not that phenomenon" (if that qualifies as "no particular view.")

{See Tao Te Ching 35}

 

[godnotgod]

I understand that there is an aspect of our consciousness that is steady in this respect by which we can discern the impermanent phenomena as they arise and pass away. (We don't go unconscious when the mind is clear and free of the impermanent stuff that comes and goes.) I understand that it can be described as "not this phenomenon, not that phenomenon" (if that qualifies as "no particular view.")

It is precisely because it is no particular view which makes it possible to describe it as 'not this phenomenon, not that phenomenon'.

If it is only an aspect of our consciousness that sees the rising and subsiding of phenomena, then what is the nature of the rest of our consciousness?

 

[crossfire]

It is precisely because it is no particular view which makes it possible to describe it as 'not this phenomenon, not that phenomenon'.

If it is only an aspect of our consciousness that sees the rising and subsiding of phenomena, then what is the nature of the rest of our consciousness?

Limited

 

[idav]

I dont get warm fuzzy feelings that we understand very well what is objective but we certainly know a Lot and that leads many down the path that knowing a lot is objective. So a bit of an open ended question what is objective?

The ego would love us to just think "me" is the only thing in existence, it makes one feel warn and fuzzy I'm sure. Although I've question the line "life is but a dream" ever since I can remember and had this feeling that the people and stuff out there existed just as much as me.

 

[godnotgod]

Limited

Yes, and so that which sees the rising and falling of phenomena is not just an aspect of our consciousness; it is unlimited consciousness, and limited consciousness is but a sculpted aspect of unlimited awareness. The person who is dreaming is the same person that awakens from the dream.

 

[crossfire]

Yes, and so that which sees the rising and falling of phenomena is not just an aspect of our consciousness; it is unlimited consciousness, and limited consciousness is but a sculpted aspect of unlimited awareness. The person who is dreaming is the same person that awakens from the dream.

I wouldn't go so far as to assume unlimited, as it is beyond the range of our limited consciousness. Our limited consciousness might not be able to discern between a limit of consciousness and a limit of awareness, and might actually just go around any limits it encounters just as water in a river flows around stones.

 

[godnotgod]

I wouldn't go so far as to assume unlimited, as it is beyond the range of our limited consciousness. Our limited consciousness might not be able to discern between a limit of consciousness and a limit of awareness, and might actually just go around any limits it encounters just as water in a river flows around stones.

If you see things as they are, where is the limitation?

 

[crossfire]

If you see things as they are, where is the limitation?

Only within my limitations. For instance, I cannot see electromagnetic waves outside the range of the visible spectrum. However, I can observe the effects of microwaves and radio waves, which are outside of the visible range. Some things can be directly observed, (visible light,) some things can be perceived through their effects (microwaves, etc,) and some other things can only be known through inference. I have no doubt that their are things which are outside of the range of my perception. The best I can do is to not distort my perception with subjective overlay.

 

[godnotgod]

Only within my limitations. For instance, I cannot see electromagnetic waves outside the range of the visible spectrum. However, I can observe the effects of microwaves and radio waves, which are outside of the visible range. Some things can be directly observed, (visible light,) some things can be perceived through their effects (microwaves, etc,) and some other things can only be known through inference. I have no doubt that their are things which are outside of the range of my perception. The best I can do is to not distort my perception with subjective overlay.

'Unlimited Consciousness' is not about 'unlimited factual knowledge'. It refers to the nature of Reality. The Heart Sutra, for example, tells us that, universally:

'form is emptiness'
emptiness is form'

This is a statement that applies to all phenomena. IOW, emptiness, or Sunyata, is just the nature of all things, and emptiness, as we know, is unlimited.

Perception is already distorted, ie; 'conditioned', by it's very nature. As conditioned mind, it is sculpted and therefore, limited. Perceptual reality, via the five senses and their extensions (ie science, logic, reason, analysis, and their hardware) is already an overlay onto Reality. Consider, for example, the findings of Newtonian physics, aka 'billiard ball mechanics', which was the standard for many years, until Quantum Physics came along to overturn it's applecart. Only Ultimate Reality sees things as they actually are*, as it is Unborn, Uncaused, and Unconditioned. Perceptual reality changes as new 'factual' knowledge comes along, but Ultimate Reality never changes, and so can be called 'The Changeless', and 'The Absolute'.

*sees into the true nature of Reality

via factual knowledge, we know much about electromagnetic waves, but we don't know what they actually are. If we knew what they actually were to begin with, that is to say, their true nature, the facts about them would then be understood within the correct context of their actual reality.

 

[crossfire]

'Unlimited Consciousness' is not about 'unlimited factual knowledge'. It refers to the nature of Reality. The Heart Sutra, for example, tells us that, universally:

'form is emptiness'
emptiness is form'

This is a statement that applies to all phenomena. IOW, emptiness, or Sunyata, is just the nature of all things, and emptiness, as we know, is unlimited.

Perception is already distorted, ie; 'conditioned', by it's very nature. As conditioned mind, it is sculpted and therefore, limited. Perceptual reality, via the five senses and their extensions (ie science, logic, reason, analysis, and their hardware) is already an overlay onto Reality. Consider, for example, the findings of Newtonian physics, aka 'billiard ball mechanics', which was the standard for many years, until Quantum Physics came along to overturn it's applecart.

I can agree with you up to this claim:

Only Ultimate Reality sees things as they actually are*, as it is Unborn, Uncaused, and Unconditioned. Perceptual reality changes as new 'factual' knowledge comes along, but Ultimate Reality never changes, and so can be called 'The Changeless', and 'The Absolute'.

*sees into the true nature of Reality

I can agree with this claim in the context of the Four Dharma Seals:

• Anicca
• Dukkha
• Anatta
• Nibbana

However, adding the conceptual overlay of "The Changeless" and "The Absolute" or even "Ultimate Reality" to it kinda defeats the "Nibbana is beyond concepts" thing, no?

 

[godnotgod]

I can agree with you up to this claim:

I can agree with this claim in the context of the Four Dharma Seals:

• Anicca
• Dukkha
• Anatta
• Nibbana

However, adding the conceptual overlay of "The Changeless" and "The Absolute" or even "Ultimate Reality" to it kinda defeats the "Nibbana is beyond concepts" thing, no?

No. Nibbana IS Ultimate Reality. It is literally the 'extinguishing' of all personal views via perceptual reality, which is the reality understood via concepts.

 

[crossfire]

No. Nibbana IS Ultimate Reality. It is literally the 'extinguishing' of all personal views via perceptual reality, which is the reality understood via concepts.

Can it really be correctly labelled "Ultimate reality" if the fire still burns elsewhere? (taking into account the other Three Seals--The Three Marks of Existence)

 

[crossfire]

Can it really be correctly labelled "Ultimate reality" if the fire still burns elsewhere? (taking into account the other Three Seals--The Three Marks of Existence)

This might be getting into the oneness of brahman and maya--which is outside my area of study.

 

[godnotgod]

Can it really be correctly labelled "Ultimate reality" if the fire still burns elsewhere? (taking into account the other Three Seals--The Three Marks of Existence)

There is no 'elsewhere'. Nirvana and Samsara are one.

Freedom from the fires of delusive thought is Ultimate Reality. The bodhisattva only returns out of compassion for those still consumed by the fire.

The dreamer is the same person as the awakened one.

The consciousness by which you are deluded is the same consciousness by which you are enlightened.

 

[godnotgod]

This might be getting into the oneness of brahman and maya--which is outside my area of study.

It's no big thing. Immersion in maya is just to have one's attention captured by the foreground of existence, without taking the background into consideration. That is when suffering ensues. It is to think one is only the wave without also being the ocean.

The gold chain is, at all times, still gold.

 

[David T]

It's no big thing. Immersion in maya is just to have one's attention captured by the foreground of existence, without taking the background into consideration. That is when suffering ensues. It is to think one is only the wave without also being the ocean.

The gold chain is, at all times, still gold.

Nice!!

 

[godnotgod]

It's no big thing. Immersion in maya is just to have one's attention captured by the foreground of existence, without taking the background into consideration. That is when suffering ensues. It is to think one is only the wave without also being the ocean.

The gold chain is, at all times, still gold.

Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki tells it this way:

"To live in the realm of Buddha nature means to die as a small
being, moment after moment. When we lose our balance
we die, but at the same time we also develop ourselves, we
grow. Whatever we see is changing, losing its balance. The
reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance,
but its background is always in perfect harmony. This
is how everything exists in the realm of Buddha nature,
losing its balance against a background of perfect balance.
So if you see things without realizing the background of
Buddha nature, everything appears to be in the form of suffering.
But if you understand the background of existence,
you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we
extend our life. So in Zen sometimes we emphasize the
imbalance or disorder of life."

Shunryu Suzuki, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind"

 

[crossfire]

Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki tells it this way:

"To live in the realm of Buddha nature means to die as a small
being, moment after moment. When we lose our balance
we die, but at the same time we also develop ourselves, we
grow. Whatever we see is changing, losing its balance. The
reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance,
but its background is always in perfect harmony. This
is how everything exists in the realm of Buddha nature,
losing its balance against a background of perfect balance.
So if you see things without realizing the background of
Buddha nature, everything appears to be in the form of suffering.
But if you understand the background of existence,
you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we
extend our life. So in Zen sometimes we emphasize the
imbalance or disorder of life."

Shunryu Suzuki, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind"

 

[crossfire]

It's no big thing. Immersion in maya is just to have one's attention captured by the foreground of existence, without taking the background into consideration. That is when suffering ensues. It is to think one is only the wave without also being the ocean.

The gold chain is, at all times, still gold.

Sure, it is certainly more effective to be able to look at reality objectively (impersonally) in order to find an intelligent solution. (Or, not allowing your mind to become overcome by subjective overlay--being equanimous.) This is the typical western interpretation of "being objective."

We've just gone through the psychological mechanisms behind "objectivity."
It's interesting how many people can be objective without consciously understanding the psychological mechanisms involved.