What is sin?

[thegospelkiss]

God is sovereign; therefore nothing happens without God’s having ordained it.
God’s foreknowledge is, in effect, the same as God’s fore-ordination; therefore, sin – defined as a violating of God’s will – is not possible. Therefore, sin is a delusion, a lie. Sinners are those who believe that they and others have, or can, violate God’s will. To that extent, we have all been sinners. Salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion.

 

[Skwim]

How are you defining "sovereign"?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

God is sovereign; therefore nothing happens without God’s having ordained it.
God’s foreknowledge is, in effect, the same as God’s fore-ordination; therefore, sin – defined as a violating of God’s will – is not possible. Therefore, sin is a delusion, a lie. Sinners are those who believe that they and others have, or can, violate God’s will. To that extent, we have all been sinners. Salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion.

God's foreknowledge is not the same as His will. His will may be for us to do something, and yet we do something else. He may already know what we will do, but that does not change what he had originally wanted us to do, and thus we sin.

 

[PolyHedral]

How are you defining "sovereign"?

Vaguely.

God's foreknowledge is not the same as His will. His will may be for us to do something, and yet we do something else. He may already know what we will do, but that does not change what he had originally wanted us to do, and thus we sin.

But why is He expecting you to do what He wants, when He knows that you won't? In order to reasonably expect you to do what He wants, He must communicate that effectively.

 

[Thief]

God is sovereign; therefore nothing happens without God’s having ordained it.
God’s foreknowledge is, in effect, the same as God’s fore-ordination; therefore, sin – defined as a violating of God’s will – is not possible. Therefore, sin is a delusion, a lie. Sinners are those who believe that they and others have, or can, violate God’s will. To that extent, we have all been sinners. Salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion.

You haven't really thought about it...have you?

Your first sentence puts everything on God....it's all His fault.

Really?

So...when a radical believer puts on a bomb....and gives you a big hug....
The two of you die.

The bomber goes to heaven.....you go to hell....

And it's all God's pre-ordained will?............really?

You're new here....why not look around for a day or two......

 

[averageJOE]

Sin is when one breaks the man-made laws of their choosen deity.

 

[Flower]

Sin is when one breaks the man-made laws of their choosen deity.

I agree.

 

[Thief]

I found a word the Spanish language.....'sin'.

It means...'without'.

Odd how some things are so simple.

If it separates you from God.....it is sin.

So then a discussion.....
What does God find offensive?...would He leave you?....altogether?
Why?

How about?....you spend your life trying to earn your way into heaven....
only to be turned away at the door.
They don't know you.

How about?...you kill someone else...thinking to kill God's enemies
martyring yourself as you do so.

How about?...all that church going ...and the weekly donations.

There's a thread around here...about some thief....
following the Carpenter into heaven.

 

[Flower]

The God character in the Bible is sinful if its deeds are correctly reported!

 

[thegospelkiss]

How are you defining "sovereign"?

I'm defining sovereign as in complete control, supreme, Almighty - omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Not to be confused with the human idea of a sovereign, monarch, king/queen - or even political sovereignty, which cannot be absolute because they are human.

 

[thegospelkiss]

God's foreknowledge is not the same as His will. His will may be for us to do something, and yet we do something else. He may already know what we will do, but that does not change what he had originally wanted us to do, and thus we sin.

God's will cannot be thwarted, trumped or violated by anything, or else that being would be greater than God and have effectively supplanted God. That's not possible. If God "foreknows" something and chooses to either create an individual anyway - or not to intervene, if you prefer - He has ordained the outcome.

 

[thegospelkiss]

You haven't really thought about it...have you?

Your first sentence puts everything on God....it's all His fault.

Really?

So...when a radical believer puts on a bomb....and gives you a big hug....
The two of you die.

The bomber goes to heaven.....you go to hell....

And it's all God's pre-ordained will?............really?

You're new here....why not look around for a day or two......

I admit I'm new here. And I've only spent about 30 years thinking about and studying these issues, but it seems to me that you haven't thought through some of your premises to their logical conclusions. And you may be unaware of some of the key scriptures which more than support my assertions. I can't explain why you are unfamiliar with them.

 

[Flower]

God's will cannot be thwarted, trumped or violated by anything, or else that being would be greater than God and have effectively supplanted God. That's not possible. If God "foreknows" something and chooses to either create an individual anyway - or not to intervene, if you prefer - He has ordained the outcome.

I reckon humans are the gods, the deity/ies, in all its forms, is a creation of the human imagination.

 

[Sweetvoice]

God is sovereign; therefore nothing happens without God’s having ordained it.
God’s foreknowledge is, in effect, the same as God’s fore-ordination; therefore, sin – defined as a violating of God’s will – is not possible. Therefore, sin is a delusion, a lie. Sinners are those who believe that they and others have, or can, violate God’s will. To that extent, we have all been sinners. Salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion.

Yes, salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion that sins are lies since the soverreign god ordained it. However, if you believe this sovereign god is not your creator (for there may be none), but only your guide, than the sins that you do will be your sins and bear consequences for you.

 

[thegospelkiss]

Yes, salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion that sins are lies since the soverreign god ordained it. However, if you believe this sovereign god is not your creator (for there may be none), but only your guide, than the sins that you do will be your sins and bear consequences for you.

Sorry, I just can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying/trying to say.

 

[Sweetvoice]

Sorry, I just can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying/trying to say.

Sorry - should have been more clear. I mean I agree with your original question. I only disagree if that sovereign god is not my creator - so in that case my sins are not his doing.

 

[thegospelkiss]

Sorry - should have been more clear. I mean I agree with your original question. I only disagree if that sovereign god is not my creator - so in that case my sins are not his doing.

Oh, OK. Well from my perspective, He is the creator of all, so I guess we agree.

 

[Falvlun]

Yes, salvation is the act of being liberated from this delusion that sins are lies since the soverreign god ordained it. However, if you believe this sovereign god is not your creator (for there may be none), but only your guide, than the sins that you do will be your sins and bear consequences for you.

Why do we need to be saved from this delusion? After all, from your perspective, God ordained it. So... he gave us a delusion and then decides to remove that delusion? Why bother?

 

[Sweetvoice]

Why do we need to be saved from this delusion? After all, from your perspective, God ordained it. So... he gave us a delusion and then decides to remove that delusion? Why bother?

If I told the position that god had obtained it, which I did not - then sin is a delusion. The delusion is itself clear because then that means god sinned for me. I have not and will never sin. There is no more delusion about sin for me.

 

[Thief]

I admit I'm new here. And I've only spent about 30 years thinking about and studying these issues, but it seems to me that you haven't thought through some of your premises to their logical conclusions. And you may be unaware of some of the key scriptures which more than support my assertions. I can't explain why you are unfamiliar with them.

I'm an old theologian....turned rogue.

And you assume I know not!