What is the case for anti paedobaptism?

[Shantanu]

So, what is the purpose of baptism?
In re the OP: does infant baptism make sense, or is baptism a covenant that should be entered into by someone who's reached an age of understanding?

As I have said: the parents owe it to the child to baptise the knowledge that a God exists: that is primary education. As to what kind of God exists: no one is capable of teaching that.

 

[Valjean]

As I have said: the parents owe it to the child to baptise the knowledge that a God exists: that is primary education. As to what kind of God exists: no one is capable of teaching that.

As I have said, you don't "baptize knowledge" into an infant. You cannot 'educate' an infant.

 

[Shantanu]

As I have said, you don't "baptize knowledge" into an infant. You cannot 'educate' an infant.

What is the first thing an infant learns to say?

 

[Valjean]

What is the first thing an infant learns to say?

Depends on its family's language.
A baby's first "word" is any utterance meaningful in its parents language -- the infant, usually, has no idea he or she is "saying" anything.
What do the mewlings of an infant have to do with baptism?

 

[Shantanu]

Depends on its family's language.
A baby's first "word" is any utterance meaningful in its parents language -- the infant, usually, has no idea he or she is "saying" anything.
What do the mewlings of an infant have to do with baptism?

The answer is the baby cries for information. The parents are then obliged to educate the child with whatever they feel is appropriate. Usually the first word taught is 'Ma'. It comes naturally. Some will go further and teach the child everything the child ought to know. For Christians, baptism may therefore be seen as the parent's response to the child's desire for knowledge.

 

[Valjean]

A baby cries at birth. It is not consciously requesting information.
Education comes much later. After infant baptism.

 

[sooda]

I

Is the baptism a declaration of faith or a promise to inculcate faith in another? Does the baptism directly or indirectly involve the baptisee?

Depends on the denomination.. Even Catholic infants who are baptized with Godparents have to "confirm" their faith when the reach the age of reason.. I think that's 13.

 

[sooda]

So, what is the purpose of baptism?
In re the OP: does infant baptism make sense, or is baptism a covenant that should be entered into by someone who's reached an age of understanding?

Infant baptism is a promise to educated the child about God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Michael Servetus called paedobaptism "...an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity."
I was wondering what the emphasis is on.

Here are my personal reasons why I disagree with the practice, as given in another recent thread:

I used to be married to a Catholic. We never had kids, but we tried for a while, so we had some discussions about them and I read about and reflected on Catholic baptism. I eventually came to the decision that my conscience would not allow me to have any part in the baptism of any child of mine.

The rationale for infant baptism in the Catechism is something close in effect to "we can't be sure that unbaptized infants go to Hell if they die, so better get it done to be on the safe side."

Another way of putting it: "when you're born, your child is such a reprehensible little ball of evil that it's possible - not certain, but possible - that a perfectly wise, perfectly good God might decide to torture him forever because of how evil he is, so we'd better splash water on him in a special way to erase that evil."

The splashing water part is just silly, IMO, but there was no way I'd stand up in front of my friends and family and nod in agreement with the idea that my innocent newborn baby is evil at all.

Most objections I've heard from Christians came from sola scriptura Protestants, who argued that baptism is meaningless without underlying belief.

Many Quakers are also against water baptism in general. They believed that "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was an inward change only.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I

Is the baptism a declaration of faith or a promise to inculcate faith in another? Does the baptism directly or indirectly involve the baptisee?

According to Catholic teaching, baptism is what makes a person a Christian.

Even if the baptized person never sets foot in a church again after baptism and never actually believes in or practice Christianity, in their eyes, this just makes the person a bad Christian, but still a Christian.

 

[Shantanu]

A baby cries at birth. It is not consciously requesting information.
Education comes much later. After infant baptism.

Do you distinguish crying from any other form of speech?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's ridiculous.. Infant baptism is about the promise to raise the child a Christian or a naming ceremony or both.. There is NOTHING diabolical about it.

I'd say that trying to subvert a child's freedom of belief and conscience is pretty awful all by itself.

Depending on the denomination/tradition, it's also an attempt at a magical ritual to make the baby no longer so evil that a good and merciful god might feel justified torturing the baby forever for how evil it is. That aspect of it is pretty awful, too.

 

[sooda]

According to Catholic teaching, baptism is what makes a person a Christian.

Even if the baptized person never sets foot in a church again after baptism and never actually believes in or practice Christianity, in their eyes, this just makes the person a bad Christian, but still a Christian.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Catholic kids are confirmed at 13 when they CHOOSE to be Christians. Infant Baptism is a blessing, a naming and a promise to attend to the child's religious instruction... or welcome him into the church if you will.

 

[sooda]

I'd say that trying to subvert a child's freedom of belief and conscience is pretty awful all by itself.

Depending on the denomination/tradition, it's also an attempt at a magical ritual to make the baby no longer so evil that a good and merciful god might feel justified torturing the baby forever for how evil it is. That aspect of it is pretty awful, too.

Good grief. Do you have children? We subvert a child's freedom when we teach them table manners.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Catholic kids are confirmed at 13 when they CHOOSE to be Christians.

And regardless of that choice, the Church still views them as Christians.

Infant Baptism is a blessing, a naming and a promise to attend to the child's religious instruction... or welcome him into the church if you will.

... and inducting the child into a religion that they did not choose.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good grief. Do you have children? We subvert a child's freedom when we teach them table manners.

I'd bet that nobody teaches their children that they'll go to Hell if they hold their fork in the wrong hand.

 

[sooda]

I'd bet that nobody teaches their children that they'll go to Hell if they hold their fork in the wrong hand.

Do you have children? We curtail their freedom in many ways.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you have children? We curtail their freedom in many ways.

So that makes this okay?

As an adult, do you cherish your freedom of religion?

 

[Brickjectivity]

How do you accept you're Christian while remaining liberal considering, whatever you think of jesus, God is pure being and it takes rationalism to get to him not pluralist subjectivity or empiricism?

I am limited in what I am allowed to say because of the section we are posting in. On RF in order to keep people from getting into fistfights all over there are some forum rules. In a section not marked 'Debate' we aren't allowed to start debates only offer opinions. I understand there may be some disagreement about what a liberal Christian is, and we can discuss it sometime and also whatever it is you think are the boundaries of things. Here is a comment I previously made in a debate about that:

This was addressed to me. I'll define liberal Christian instead. It is a label that ought to mean someone has decided that their own life is the talent that must be invested and not buried; that they are to assist other people of all kinds. They are liberal in investing themselves, so strictly speaking you can be both liberal and fundamentalist though those terms together would confuse most people. Liberal is the default ideal left to all Christians and does not require a reductionist view of the Bible, nor does Jesus judge anyone on their doctrines. Instead its all about how we treat other people, especially the least, those that cannot repay. So liberal Christian is an ideal, but it is also a label that people embrace even if we aren't very liberal.

To your response, I feel he had a rational reason to disliking paedobaptism and it extends to a form or body that we haven't encountered in awhile (a specific drive to do what's right and not just what feels right). I figure I need to read more into early christianity, before the perversion of Aquinas, because he had a passionate reason for disliking it and it wasn't just cause that's how he felt, although that's been the justified position of modern cultural times.


Edit: The big battle of what is good and what is evil plays out in these understandings. More specifically, how we should view God if we want to be good of Christian. I understand protestants want to simply say as long as you accept God you're fine, but the question comes up if you're actually accepting God or are, just instead, accepting a personal God of your own creation.

I feel a Bible student reaches a point at which they can see Jesus saying not to judge who is and who isn't Christian based on what they say and only based on what they do, and I don't feel Jesus is caught up in details about whether the wine is sweet or alcoholic, and I believe love covers a multitude of sins including doctrinal errors. Overall I respect Michael Servetus rejection of politics in the church, and I think its sad that he was killed for trying to fix everything.

 

[sooda]

So that makes this okay?

As an adult, do you cherish your freedom of religion?

Do you have children?