What is the oldest religion?

[Willamena]

Isn't interpretation, just speculation?

If you interpret interpretation as speculation, then I guess it is.

There is no evidences to support goddess worship, just some people interpreting or speculating that it might be true.

If you were to ask me: "Does the figurines have spiritual significance?"

I would unequivocally answer you: :yes:

But if were to ask me: "Are these feminine figurines images of goddess worship?"

Then I would answer, "it could be", but I don't think we have enough verifiable information or evidence, to understand the context of the image to say it is a "goddess" they were worshipping.

Then why don't you just say that instead of that the figurines are not depictions of goddess?

You have to understand that I see spirituality and religion are not necessarily the same things.

If these figurines were found near something like altar, then yeah, :yes: for sure.

But if they were found buried with someone, that still don't necessarily shout "goddess". It could be, or it could be not.

I couldn't care what this archaeologist think, if he can't provide more than his interpretation.

Her.

You of all people should know that there are in number of interpretations to any work of art. Your interpretation may agree with the artist, or you may be wrong. You cannot possibly truly know what the artist's intention are, unless you ask them or he wrote them down.

And we cannot possibly know with stone-carver's intention or inspiration to his or her Venus figurine.

I don't doubt that my own view here, could be wrong, and your archaeologist could be right, but how any of us positively know for certain?

Sorry, willamena, but it is the archaeologist's speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

Fair enough.

 

[gnostic]

Her.

Her, then.

Then why don't you just say that instead of that the figurines are not depictions of goddess?

I don't think it is a goddess, but I could be wrong.

I still think it is image of a woman.

Do you remember what I wrote in post 79 about the palaeolithic wall paintings of Lascaux Caves?

I clearly implied that they were painting what they can see and what they can or have experience: their reality.

With the Venus figurines?

I think it is the same thing. They can see their reality that women could be pregnant, or if they are not pregnant or already have given birth, women with large breasts. So it is far likely, that each stone figurine depict a woman, not a goddess.

What they can see is a woman; saying that it is a goddess, is nothing more than a leap of faith. How can you possibly know or believe they are images of goddesses?

Stick with what you know or can know, so by default, any right-minded archaeologist or anthropologist should stick with far simpler explanation than exotic ones, until he or she can verify his or her interpretation or guesswork with other evidences.

Archaeologist can be wrong. I have not read Marija Gimbutas' works, so I can't say if she is right or wrong, but if she expect us to blindly follow her words because of her qualification and experiences as an archaeologist, then she is in the wrong field, if she can't supply additional evidences to support claims.

Where were each of these figurines? What other objects, if any, were found with the figurine? Were all the objects votive or not?

I am more of engineer (civil engineer and computer scientist/programmer & network administrator) than a scientist or archaeologist, but even I believe in using "scientific method" and "falsifiability", so I know that nothing is true with regarding hypothesis or theory, unless you can verify with evidences. And there is nothing really verifiable with the Venus figurines.

 

[AlphaAlex115]

Apparently Judaism is the oldest according to wiki.


But there's no means of escape. No matter how hard I try to believe in these contrived feelings, they simply don't exist.

 

[Sabour]

I actually do not know and was asked this the other day. Is there any definite answer? And when I say religion I don't mean as in one guy thinking ''Yeah there's a man in the sky that controls everything" etc. I mean a religion, that may or may not now be dead, that a moderately large group took part and believed in. My history is terrible so I reaaly have no clue :^)

Islam is the oldest religion.

It was the religion of all the prophets including Jesus and Moses peace be upon them. Adam and Eve were muslims too.

Islam was there since men had foot on earth.

Muhammad peace be upon him wasn't the first muslim, he was the last prophet of Islam.

 

[gnostic]

Islam is the oldest religion.

It was the religion of all the prophets including Jesus and Moses peace be upon them. Adam and Eve were muslims too.

Only a Muslim would say or believe something like this, which is why such claim, with utterly no credible evidences to support it. It is why non-Muslims don't take Islam seriously in the world of history.

 

[Willamena]

Where were each of these figurines? What other objects, if any, were found with the figurine? Were all the objects votive or not?

Have you researched?

I am more of engineer (civil engineer and computer scientist/programmer & network administrator) than a scientist or archaeologist, but even I believe in using "scientific method" and "falsifiability", so I know that nothing is true with regarding hypothesis or theory, unless you can verify with evidences. And there is nothing really verifiable with the Venus figurines.

Verifiability makes for truth?

 

[Sabour]

Only a Muslim would say or believe something like this, which is why such claim, with utterly no credible evidences to support it. It is why non-Muslims don't take Islam seriously in the world of history.

When Jesus peace be upon him said I didn't come to destroy the law of the prophets, I came to fulfill it.

Only Christians believe in that too ?

 

[Riverwolf]

Apparently Judaism is the oldest according to wiki.


But there's no means of escape. No matter how hard I try to believe in these contrived feelings, they simply don't exist.

The feelings don't exist? Then how are you feeling them?

 

[Riverwolf]

When Jesus peace be upon him said I didn't come to destroy the law of the prophets, I came to fulfill it.

Only Christians believe in that too ?

Pretty much. I don't.

 

[Sabour]

Pretty much. I don't.

My point was that if someone doesn't believe in something, it is not necessarily false.

 

[Alt Thinker]

Venus figurines date back at least 35,000 years. The Australian indigenous population has been there an estimated 40,000 years. Are the figurines religious?
How far back do the Australian Dreamtime religions go? And let's not forget those cave paintings. The Neanderthals were our cousins, not or ancestors. Do they count? Oh wait, we carry some Neanderthal genes.

Um, what was the question again?

 

[outhouse]

For all we know, they're stone age porn.

Ive heard that too.


I know im guessing and imaginative, with my assumption


Good point that they may not have put 2 and 2 together on sex and pregnancy.

 

[outhouse]

Only a Muslim would say or believe something like this, which is why such claim, with utterly no credible evidences to support it. It is why non-Muslims don't take Islam seriously in the world of history.

Agreed, I'm falling into a pattern of stereotyping them based on their post here, they all seem fundamentalist in nature.

Its like all of them have the mentality and methodology of YEC.

 

[outhouse]

My point was that if someone doesn't believe in something, it is not necessarily false.

And belief, does not make it true.

All Abrahamic religions, including yours is steeped in rhetoric and mythology and factually based on pseudo history.


That does not mean it is all mythology, or all rhetoric, there are some parts that are historical.


The difference is those who make historical assumptions from ignorance.

 

[roger1440]

These figurines more than likely were highly valued by the people who made them. It would have taken a lot of time and effort to make them. I speculate that the first ones were probably made of wood. As the artist became more skilled in making them he then would have used a more durable material such as stone or ivory. The “Venus of Willendorf” figurine is about 4.25 inches tall. It has no feet. The figurine is a little larger than a pack of cigarettes. It would fit nicely in the hand to carry around. I think it might be a good luck charm or an image of a fertility goddess. The ancients knew life begins in the womb. They might have believed all of creation comes from the womb of God. What would God look like? They probably imagined God as very attractive rather than being beat down with an ugly stick. In ancient times men found overweight women more attractive then skinny women. Coincidentally when a woman has an overabundance of the female hormone Estrogen she tends to put on weight on her thighs and rear end.

 

[outhouse]

These figurines more than likely were highly valued by the people who made them.

Agreed.

What if it was a wealth status?


Most women in nomad tribes were skinny.

Could be viewed as health and wealth.


One would be quite the hunter to own that kind of wife. She might even be able to feed two children at once!

 

[roger1440]

Agreed.

What if it was a wealth status?


Most women in nomad tribes were skinny.

Could be viewed as health and wealth.


One would be quite the hunter to own that kind of wife. She might even be able to feed two children at once!

Women were probably skinny because food was scarce.

 

[outhouse]

Women were probably skinny because food was scarce.

That was my point.

 

[Riverwolf]

Most women in nomad tribes were skinny.

Not necessarily. While the amount of food wouldn't have been enough to feed large populations, it would have been more than enough to keep nomadic tribes well-fed and fat with muscles. Mammoths would have had a LOT of meat on them.

I just did a bit of digging on the matter, and an article from a Greek peer-reviewed journal had this to say on the matter:

the females were comparably small and robust (mean height 158 cm[5'2''], estimated average body weight 54 kg[~119 lbs]). The "Venus of Vestonice", a Palaeolithic idol of some 24,000 years of age, might be considered a delightful representative of the short and stout females of this age.

And the Venus statue being referenced:

Spoiler: Medium-Large Picture

Source article: Hormones.gr

Should be noted that the article is about 10 years old, so new findings might have outdated it.

Women were probably skinny because food was scarce.

Food would have likely been the main measure of "wealth" for these people.

 

[gnostic]

When Jesus peace be upon him said I didn't come to destroy the law of the prophets, I came to fulfill it.

Only Christians believe in that too ?

Perhaps they do, but I am not a Christian, so it doesn't make anything different to me what Jesus allegedly say or not say.

Christianity doesn't say it is the oldest religion, nor did Jesus give any name to his new religion he had advocated to be the oldest.

Using a couple of mythological characters, Adam and Eve, to justify Islam being the oldest religion only demonstrates your religion (Qur'an) is based on myth.*

Myth is not the same thing as history, and you would know that if you bother to learn about history.*