ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Pauls speaks of the third heaven. does anyone know what he's talking about?
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What is the third heaven?
- Thread starter ThisShouldMakeSense
- Start date
The pagans in many cases believed in seven heavens, but there is no Biblical hint of any such thing. It is possible that Paul was translated in time to the future heaven--that is, the new heaven and new earth, the first having been destroyed by water, the second by fire (2 Peter 3:5-13). More likely, however, he was translated beyond the heaven of the stars and the heaven of the birds (Genesis 1:15,20) to the heaven where God's throne is (Isaiah 14:13; Job 22:12), the heaven to which Christ ascended to the right hand of God at His throne (Mark 16:19; Ephesians 1:20).
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
michel said:The pagans in many cases believed in seven heavens, but there is no Biblical hint of any such thing. It is possible that Paul was translated in time to the future heaven--that is, the new heaven and new earth, the first having been destroyed by water, the second by fire (2 Peter 3:5-13). More likely, however, he was translated beyond the heaven of the stars and the heaven of the birds (Genesis 1:15,20) to the heaven where God's throne is (Isaiah 14:13; Job 22:12), the heaven to which Christ ascended to the right hand of God at His throne (Mark 16:19; Ephesians 1:20).
WoW! Fast responce! Thanks for that, that is an interesting theory. the best i've heard so far. BTW, who was the man who was taken there? cos in some translations Paul says ' I know of a man'...?
When Paul speaks of himself, it is as a poor sinner, and very humble. Then it is I myself. Rom. 7. But here, lest ostentation should appear, he conceals himself under the character of another man.
I may be wrong, and no doubt someone please correct me if I am, but the passage from Romans 7:7 through the end of the chapter describes the internal conflict in Paul (as in believers generally) between the old and new natures. Romans 7:22, for example "I delight in the law of God after the inward man," could not be the sincere testimony of an unsaved man, but it does reflect the attitude of a true Christian who loves God's law (Psalm 119:7) but struggles with its temptations because of his still-active 'old sin-nature'. So here, in case he should sound pretentious or vain, he conceals himself under the character of another man.
ThisShouldMakeSense
Active Member
michel said:When Paul speaks of himself, it is as a poor sinner, and very humble. Then it is I myself. Rom. 7. But here, lest ostentation should appear, he conceals himself under the character of another man.
I may be wrong, and no doubt someone please correct me if I am, but the passage from Romans 7:7 through the end of the chapter describes the internal conflict in Paul (as in believers generally) between the old and new natures. Romans 7:22, for example "I delight in the law of God after the inward man," could not be the sincere testimony of an unsaved man, but it does reflect the attitude of a true Christian who loves God's law (Psalm 119:7) but struggles with its temptations because of his still-active 'old sin-nature'. So here, in case he should sound pretentious or vain, he conceals himself under the character of another man.
yes, that is the other theory i've heard, but i'm not sure about that. in chapter 11 he compares himself to the most eminent apostles, and in verse 23 he says: 'Do they work for Christ? I have worked for Him much more than they have. (I speak as if I am crazy.) I have done much more work. I have been in prison more times. I cannot remember how many times I have been whipped. Many times I have been in danger of death.'
so i'm not sure if he was referring to himself as another man on the grounds of being humble, if in other verses he made great claims of himself...
hanessah
Member
A wonderful book to get to read is the book of ENOCH who in the Bible we know he went to heaven but nothing else was said about this WHY?? This tells of the seven heavens or layers of heaven as beautiful or awful as they may be and how the heavens work right down to controlling the weather and seasons. Mentioned above, the pagans believe in 7 heavens, I see no difference in reading this or Thomas, or the Infancy anything that is kept out of the standard WORD its great reading the edition I have alsohas is the story of Adam and Eve also great reading it could bring an entire new picture on the OT reading of Genesis.and who is to say it's wrong
DeepShadow
White Crow
Here's one explanation:
Thus the "third heaven" would be the celestial kingdom.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You need to go to Genesis 1 in a King James Bible. In the Beginning God created the heaven(singular) and the earth. Later He created the firmament of heaven (space) which separated the waters from above from the waters from below. Even later He created birds and placed them in the open firmament of heaven.
Those are the three heavens, 1. heaven, 2. the firmament of heaven, 3. the open firmament of heaven.
You can see from Corinthians that heaven is deemed the third heaven.
Those are the three heavens, 1. heaven, 2. the firmament of heaven, 3. the open firmament of heaven.
You can see from Corinthians that heaven is deemed the third heaven.
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
Here is a pretty good explanation I found at The "Third Heaven"
First, most students of Scripture accept that Paul is writing this verse about himself, and that he is referring to his own visionary experience on the road to Damascus some years earlier (Acts 9:1-9, 22:6-11). It was this experience that caused Paul to claim in another letter that he had seen the risen Christ (1 Cor 15:1-10, cf. Gal 1:12). His half-hearted attempt at modesty in addressing the Corinthians led him to claim rather weakly that he knew a man who had this experience. Well, that man was Paul. He was not trying to be deceitful or evasive, but used this method of writing as a means of getting his point across in the letter.
Remember that there was a group in Corinth, maybe even the majority, who were questioning the authority of Paul (1 Cor 9:1-14, 2 Cor 10-11). This group was following the lead of some who were claiming higher knowledge due to some special powers or ecstatic experience (1 Cor 12; cf. 1 Cor 3:21, 4:6-7). It could be that after diminishing the importance of these "powers" that Paul did not want to use his own special experience to claim authority for himself, even though he admits just a few verses later that he was this man (12:7). His point was to establish his authority as an apostle without boasting about his own spiritual experiences to do so (cf. 12:5). This all simply suggests that the answer to this question will come from within this text and its historical context and not from our own later theological ideas.
Jews of that time did not have the scientific knowledge that we take for granted, so they did not think of the world in scientific terms or descriptions. Instead they attempted to conceptualize the world in terms of what they knew, and usually described it visually. So, when they conceived of the universe, they constructed a multi-layered world, sort of like a large onion composed of various layers with the physical world in which human beings lived at the center. These layers were called "firmament" or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or "heavens" in the New Testament era. There are many other non-Biblical books and writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) when Dante wrote of the various levels of heaven and hell.
Most often this model contained seven heavens but in a few writings there were only three layers. Even though the number of layers was different these models of the universe shared some common traits. The lowest heaven, the core of the "onion," is the visible physical world that all people can see. In most of these models the second heaven is composed of water, a great sea, a firmament dividing the earth from the heavenly beings. This water that surrounded the earth became a common symbol for chaos and disorder that threatened to engulf the world (cf. Gen 6; see Speaking the Language of Canaan for a discussion of the symbolism of the cosmic waters). So often, these waters were understood to be gathered to await the coming day of judgment when they would once again be loosed to destroy the unrighteous. However, the third heaven was beyond the sight of human beings. It was the dwelling place of God and his attendant heavenly beings whom he would send to protect Israel and the righteous. So when Paul claims to have seen the risen Christ he is describing his experience in terms that he, and others, would readily understand. In that cultural context, he would have assumed that God had taken him to the region where it was possible to see spiritual beings, and the risen Christ.
First, most students of Scripture accept that Paul is writing this verse about himself, and that he is referring to his own visionary experience on the road to Damascus some years earlier (Acts 9:1-9, 22:6-11). It was this experience that caused Paul to claim in another letter that he had seen the risen Christ (1 Cor 15:1-10, cf. Gal 1:12). His half-hearted attempt at modesty in addressing the Corinthians led him to claim rather weakly that he knew a man who had this experience. Well, that man was Paul. He was not trying to be deceitful or evasive, but used this method of writing as a means of getting his point across in the letter.
Remember that there was a group in Corinth, maybe even the majority, who were questioning the authority of Paul (1 Cor 9:1-14, 2 Cor 10-11). This group was following the lead of some who were claiming higher knowledge due to some special powers or ecstatic experience (1 Cor 12; cf. 1 Cor 3:21, 4:6-7). It could be that after diminishing the importance of these "powers" that Paul did not want to use his own special experience to claim authority for himself, even though he admits just a few verses later that he was this man (12:7). His point was to establish his authority as an apostle without boasting about his own spiritual experiences to do so (cf. 12:5). This all simply suggests that the answer to this question will come from within this text and its historical context and not from our own later theological ideas.
Jews of that time did not have the scientific knowledge that we take for granted, so they did not think of the world in scientific terms or descriptions. Instead they attempted to conceptualize the world in terms of what they knew, and usually described it visually. So, when they conceived of the universe, they constructed a multi-layered world, sort of like a large onion composed of various layers with the physical world in which human beings lived at the center. These layers were called "firmament" or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or "heavens" in the New Testament era. There are many other non-Biblical books and writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) when Dante wrote of the various levels of heaven and hell.
Most often this model contained seven heavens but in a few writings there were only three layers. Even though the number of layers was different these models of the universe shared some common traits. The lowest heaven, the core of the "onion," is the visible physical world that all people can see. In most of these models the second heaven is composed of water, a great sea, a firmament dividing the earth from the heavenly beings. This water that surrounded the earth became a common symbol for chaos and disorder that threatened to engulf the world (cf. Gen 6; see Speaking the Language of Canaan for a discussion of the symbolism of the cosmic waters). So often, these waters were understood to be gathered to await the coming day of judgment when they would once again be loosed to destroy the unrighteous. However, the third heaven was beyond the sight of human beings. It was the dwelling place of God and his attendant heavenly beings whom he would send to protect Israel and the righteous. So when Paul claims to have seen the risen Christ he is describing his experience in terms that he, and others, would readily understand. In that cultural context, he would have assumed that God had taken him to the region where it was possible to see spiritual beings, and the risen Christ.
Just curious, but just how, do you think, was the first Heaven “destroyed by water”? What exactly was destroyed?The pagans in many cases believed in seven heavens, but there is no Biblical hint of any such thing. It is possible that Paul was translated in time to the future heaven--that is, the new heaven and new earth, the first having been destroyed by water, the second by fire (2 Peter 3:5-13). More likely, however, he was translated beyond the heaven of the stars and the heaven of the birds (Genesis 1:15,20) to the heaven where God's throne is (Isaiah 14:13; Job 22:12), the heaven to which Christ ascended to the right hand of God at His throne (Mark 16:19; Ephesians 1:20).
ThisShouldMakeSense asked in the O.P. “ In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Pauls speaks of the third heaven. does anyone know what he's talking about?”
Hi @ThisShouldMakeSense
1) REGARDING THE "THIRD HEAVEN" REFERRED TO BY PAUL IN 2ND CORINTHIANS 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven 2Cor 12:2
While I cannot tell if Paul is speaking of the specific heaven @DeepShadow described, it is certainly correct that the ancient Judeo-Christian theology involved multiple heavens of varying levels and conditions since they describe this model in the ancient Judao-Christian texts.
This ancient model of heavenly reward was not a “light switch” model where one is either in a highest heaven or sent to a darkest hell, but rather it was more just model with varied heavens of differing levels of glory, “Because on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward.” (2nd Enoch 44:5)
Thus the Haggadah tells us that “ Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a purpose of it own.”. The highest heaven was described as containing “ ...naught but what is good and beautiful: right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations...” as well as “ the divine throne, surrounded by the seraphim, [...] and the ministering angels.” (The Haggadah - The alphabet ch 2)
The early literature is full of references to such references of “the 3rd heaven” which was described as being “closed off from this world. And the guards are appointed at the very large gates to the east of the sun, angels of flame, singing victory songs, never silent, rejoicing at the arrival of the righteous. (2nd Enoch 42:4)
The genre of early ascension lilterature is characterized by Prophets who are taken, either bodily or by vision, into the highest of all heavens. For example, the prophet Enoch speaks of going “up to the highest heaven, [into the highest Jerusalem], into my eternal inheritance.” (2nd Enoch 55:1-2)
In this early Judeo-Christian model, it made perfect sense to the Early Judao-christians to have the angel Michael be commanded “Take him [Adam] up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world.” Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6
Another angel tells the Prophet Sedrach : “I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel, having stretched out his wings, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, and the flame of the divinity stood there.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5)
This model of varying levels of reward, corresponded to individuals having varying moral characteristics.
This is why Irenaeus, in describing what used to be taught by the “elders” was that “...those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father...” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5)
This early Judao-Christian description of varying levels of heaven corresponding to varying levels of reward appropriate to the varying characteristics of those being judged had distinct hierarchies.
The “higher levels” of heaven and their corresponding glories are honored by the lower levels of heaven. This sort of hierarchy of respect and glories is described by the Prophet Enoch when he says that “...the angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince,... fall prostrate. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate....” and so on.
Higher and more Glorious heavens are honored by the lower heavens. This honor shown by princes is the same as the honor the guardians of the entrances to the various heavens show to the guardians of the higher heavens. “...The guardians of the door of the first palace, when they see the guardians of the door of the second palace, they remove their glorious crowns from their heads and fall prostrate. The guardians of the door of the second palace... “ etc, etc. (3 Enoch18:3)
Since Paul did not go into more detail, I cannot tell regarding the specifics of this third heaven the man was “caught up” into. I do think this ancient model of varying levels of reward for varying levels of effort, faith, sacrifice, moral advancement, and commitment to God and the atonement is more just and fair than the later “lightswitch model” of either a glorious heaven or a disastrous hell adopted by some later Christian movements.
Anyone who reads greek will also note that frequently (frequently) when the English New Testament refers to the word "heaven", the actual greek source word is "heavens" (in the plural). It just doesn't come out in many english translations.
For example, the ESV of Matthew 18:19 reads "Again I say to you, if two of you may agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven".
This is an incorrect text since the greek word for heaven (ouranois) in this sentence is a plural.
Certain other bibles such as Bereans Literal Bible, Darby Bible Translation and Young's Literal Translation render it more correctly as "heavens" (plural).
Youngs reads : "Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they ask-it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens".
As another aside, the Hebrew for "heaven' (Shawmayim) is a plural (dual) and there is no known singular form for this word.
In any case @ThisShouldMakeSense, good luck in forming your own models and understanding as to what the text is saying and what is most rational and just and logical.
Clear
εινετζακω
Hi @ThisShouldMakeSense
1) REGARDING THE "THIRD HEAVEN" REFERRED TO BY PAUL IN 2ND CORINTHIANS 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven 2Cor 12:2
While I cannot tell if Paul is speaking of the specific heaven @DeepShadow described, it is certainly correct that the ancient Judeo-Christian theology involved multiple heavens of varying levels and conditions since they describe this model in the ancient Judao-Christian texts.
This ancient model of heavenly reward was not a “light switch” model where one is either in a highest heaven or sent to a darkest hell, but rather it was more just model with varied heavens of differing levels of glory, “Because on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward.” (2nd Enoch 44:5)
Thus the Haggadah tells us that “ Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a purpose of it own.”. The highest heaven was described as containing “ ...naught but what is good and beautiful: right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations...” as well as “ the divine throne, surrounded by the seraphim, [...] and the ministering angels.” (The Haggadah - The alphabet ch 2)
The early literature is full of references to such references of “the 3rd heaven” which was described as being “closed off from this world. And the guards are appointed at the very large gates to the east of the sun, angels of flame, singing victory songs, never silent, rejoicing at the arrival of the righteous. (2nd Enoch 42:4)
The genre of early ascension lilterature is characterized by Prophets who are taken, either bodily or by vision, into the highest of all heavens. For example, the prophet Enoch speaks of going “up to the highest heaven, [into the highest Jerusalem], into my eternal inheritance.” (2nd Enoch 55:1-2)
In this early Judeo-Christian model, it made perfect sense to the Early Judao-christians to have the angel Michael be commanded “Take him [Adam] up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world.” Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6
Another angel tells the Prophet Sedrach : “I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel, having stretched out his wings, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, and the flame of the divinity stood there.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5)
This model of varying levels of reward, corresponded to individuals having varying moral characteristics.
This is why Irenaeus, in describing what used to be taught by the “elders” was that “...those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father...” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5)
This early Judao-Christian description of varying levels of heaven corresponding to varying levels of reward appropriate to the varying characteristics of those being judged had distinct hierarchies.
The “higher levels” of heaven and their corresponding glories are honored by the lower levels of heaven. This sort of hierarchy of respect and glories is described by the Prophet Enoch when he says that “...the angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince,... fall prostrate. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate....” and so on.
Higher and more Glorious heavens are honored by the lower heavens. This honor shown by princes is the same as the honor the guardians of the entrances to the various heavens show to the guardians of the higher heavens. “...The guardians of the door of the first palace, when they see the guardians of the door of the second palace, they remove their glorious crowns from their heads and fall prostrate. The guardians of the door of the second palace... “ etc, etc. (3 Enoch18:3)
Since Paul did not go into more detail, I cannot tell regarding the specifics of this third heaven the man was “caught up” into. I do think this ancient model of varying levels of reward for varying levels of effort, faith, sacrifice, moral advancement, and commitment to God and the atonement is more just and fair than the later “lightswitch model” of either a glorious heaven or a disastrous hell adopted by some later Christian movements.
Anyone who reads greek will also note that frequently (frequently) when the English New Testament refers to the word "heaven", the actual greek source word is "heavens" (in the plural). It just doesn't come out in many english translations.
For example, the ESV of Matthew 18:19 reads "Again I say to you, if two of you may agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven".
This is an incorrect text since the greek word for heaven (ouranois) in this sentence is a plural.
Certain other bibles such as Bereans Literal Bible, Darby Bible Translation and Young's Literal Translation render it more correctly as "heavens" (plural).
Youngs reads : "Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they ask-it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens".
As another aside, the Hebrew for "heaven' (Shawmayim) is a plural (dual) and there is no known singular form for this word.
In any case @ThisShouldMakeSense, good luck in forming your own models and understanding as to what the text is saying and what is most rational and just and logical.
Clear
εινετζακω
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Hi @RabbiO
Actually my response was meant to answer a question that has been unanswered for 16 years.
While there are many posts that are recent, I thought the question itself was important enough to deserve a response for other readers who are still active and interested in an answer.
This thread was viewed at least 100 times the first 72 hours since I posted an answer.
This is sufficient evidence to me that the question still has interest and import to readers nowadays and that is the response that is important.
Clear
Actually my response was meant to answer a question that has been unanswered for 16 years.
While there are many posts that are recent, I thought the question itself was important enough to deserve a response for other readers who are still active and interested in an answer.
This thread was viewed at least 100 times the first 72 hours since I posted an answer.
This is sufficient evidence to me that the question still has interest and import to readers nowadays and that is the response that is important.
Clear
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