What is to be done?

[Laika]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

 

[Enoch07]

Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

Yes

 

[Vee]

Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

In my humble opinion you're being very realistic.

 

[idav]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

It's a supply demand, people have to stop demanding oil guzzlers. I have always been partial to solar power.

 

[Laika]

Yes

If you have any evidence or particular points you want to criticise, I'm open to them.

In my humble opinion you're being very realistic.

Thanks.

It's a supply demand, people have to stop demanding oil guzzlers. I have always been partial to solar power.

Leaving the fate of the planet to "market forces" seems a bit dangerous, or at least leaves things to chance. I might be wrong and things turn out "ok" based on market solutions as technology is going to be a big part of the solution. I know people can and will defend it on the basis of "freedom" but we typically understand the limits of freedom where it causes harm. Climate Change would certainly appear to be a form of harm, even if it is difficult to measure the harm causes by particular individuals or organisations (and therefore difficult to input these "external costs" into market prices). It would appear we at least need to re-thinking the limits of economic freedom in this area.

 

[Grandliseur]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

You know the golden rule? He who has the gold rules. It is clear that only the very rich and those in power get into high places in politics. Their concern is not you, me, or the condition of the earth. Their concern is primarily their own bank accounts.

In the news just today or yesterday, a politician is said to have used hundreds of thousands of dollars on personal airplane trips, etc. Our perspective is only about ourselves, me, and me, and me, me me me me.

Where do you think North Korea gets the money to do what they are doing?
Where do you think the Muslim terrorists get their funds, their arms?

It is about money, power, for whomever can afford it. This idealism of bettering the world for ourselves and others is what is taught to the masses, not to the rich and powerful. If they can make $100,000 dollars or x100 this by killing any amount of people, it will be done.
-----
Look at those selling drugs,
look at the cops who steal people's possessions without trial -
look at the people making medicine -

it is about $$$.

 

[Enoch07]

If you have any evidence or particular points you want to criticise, I'm open to them.

No evidence, just opinion.

While I think it will always be important for us to be mindful of our environment, and help take care of it. I think that most of the people who are freaking out that Trump got elected are being irrational. Don't get me wrong, personally I don't like Trump or his type, and I certainly did not vote for him. But if even if half the stuff his enemies thought was true about him was indeed true, things would be a lot worse than they are.

Now I understand it to some degree because I thought the same of Obama. I thought for sure, Obama was going to ruin us. In hindsight it turns out he was not near as bad as I thought. He made a lot of mistakes, but it could have been worse. And I think Trumps presidency will amount to about the same thing after the fact.

 

[RoaringSilence]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

i think the easiest thing that i can do to contribute is to quit meat. beyond this takes effort but quitting meat is an easy thing to do and encouraging others to think of reducing or avoiding as much as they can... small contribution but it helps curb methane.
Thankfully india has too many veg tasty options .. especially south indian food .

 

[Quetzal]

While I think it will always be important for us to be mindful of our environment, and help take care of it. I think that most of the people who are freaking out that Trump got elected are being irrational.

I am going to stop you here only because this sentiment is rampant on these forums from those who drift further to the right. I think it is appropriate to remind folks that many who are upset with Trump are not upset that he was elected. They are upset with his actions since his election. Regarding environmental issues, I believe these emotions have merit.

 

[PureX]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

I think you're worrying excessively over issues that you can do almost nothing about. Which is a very frustrating place to be.

If humanity is going to destroy itself because it can't overcome individual greed, willful ignorance, and blind stupidity, then so be it. We will not have deserved to survive. We can call ourselves a valiant effort, in advance of our failure and extinction as a species. And no one will call us anything after we're gone.

 

[Quetzal]

I think you're worrying excessively over issues that you can do almost nothing about. Which is a very frustrating place to be.

If humanity is going to destroy itself because it can't overcome individual greed, willful ignorance, and blind stupidity, then so be it. We will not have deserved to survive. We can call ourselves a valiant effort, in advance of our failure and extinction as a species. And no one will call us anything after we're gone.

You must be a riot at parties.

 

[BSM1]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

A couple of points, please:

1. Can you cite any stat showing the US being the second largest polluter, and
2. you do realize the Paris Agreement was non-binding to other countries, just the US. China, Russia, and India, for example, did not have to conform to the terms is they did not not wish, and
3. how does the US not agreeing to this sham of a "green" agreement mean the Earth's temperature will rise at all (which, BTW, global warming references are sooo yesterday).

 

[YmirGF]

You must be a riot at parties.

Posts to slit your wrists by, eh? Oy vey.

@Laika

I do feel for you. There was one option you deftly ignored, probably due to your understanding of the effects of humans on the climate. You do have to bear in mind that the doom and gloom predictions are educated guesses. The truth is, we don't really know what will happen. I know that is pretty thin gruel but it does little good to get depressed about things you can not really change. Do what you can! Educate those around you! Be that "gold standard" yourself! Screw Trump and the politician's lack of direct action. If you do this, you can at least hold your head up.

As a weird sort of compliment, smart people are especially prone to depression because we are able to manufacture far more intricate webs of self-deception. Don't give into it. Resist the urge to wallow in despair. It's not worth it. I know, I'm never going back to that lonely, horrible place. Life is too short.

I wonder if another survivor in our midst has anything to add @Sunstone about depression.

 

[WalterTrull]

Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

Dude! Chill! The earth exists because it is needed, - most likely forever, - at least in some form. Whether or not we are needed in this form is up for grabs, but it can be fun. Lets go surfing.

 

[Laika]

A couple of points, please:

1. Can you cite any stat showing the US being the second largest polluter, and
2. you do realize the Paris Agreement was non-binding to other countries, just the US. China, Russia, and India, for example, did not have to conform to the terms is they did not not wish, and
3. how does the US not agreeing to this sham of a "green" agreement mean the Earth's temperature will rise at all (which, BTW, global warming references are sooo yesterday).

1. USA is second largest polluter in the world
2. Yes.
3. It wasn't so much that the earths temperature would rise (we're already committed to "some") but that the Paris agreement provided a basic framework to say "We don't any more than 1.5'C or risk crossing the 2'C threshold which is considered dangerous". There is a three year delay on the US exit, but this is a really big piece of sabotage on international efforts to keep greenhouse gas emissions at what are considered safe levels voluntarily when it is in the interests of everyone to do so.

No evidence, just opinion.

While I think it will always be important for us to be mindful of our environment, and help take care of it. I think that most of the people who are freaking out that Trump got elected are being irrational. Don't get me wrong, personally I don't like Trump or his type, and I certainly did not vote for him. But if even if half the stuff his enemies thought was true about him was indeed true, things would be a lot worse than they are.

Now I understand it to some degree because I thought the same of Obama. I thought for sure, Obama was going to ruin us. In hindsight it turns out he was not near as bad as I thought. He made a lot of mistakes, but it could have been worse. And I think Trumps presidency will amount to about the same thing after the fact.

There is alot of irrationality coming out from the Anti-Trump camp and much of it is hysterical. There is also a decent argument to be made that climate change has been treated as a propaganda weapon based on fear, guilt, etc (and that worse, this doesn't work because if you want people to do something you have to make them "happy"). However, it still doesn't take away from the facts that climate change is real and even without a US withdrawal from the Paris Agreement this was going to be "a dam close run thing". I thought Clinton might not do enough on this issue either, but she would have been better than Trump. That said, it still may have not been enough even if she had won.

There is a "lag" on the response of global temperatures due to increases in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The lag is believed to be about 40 years, so the effects of our emissions today will not be felt till the 2050's. This is assuming we stopped polluting overnight, let the climate stabilise. So this decision isn't simply about partisan politics but an issue which is bigger than one nation or one president.

Posts to slit your wrists by, eh? Oy vey.

@Laika

I do feel for you. There was one option you deftly ignored, probably due to your understanding of the effects of humans on the climate. You do have to bear in mind that the doom and gloom predictions are educated guesses. The truth is, we don't really know what will happen. I know that is pretty thin gruel but it does little good to get depressed about things you can not really change. Do what you can! Educate those around you! Be that "gold standard" yourself! Screw Trump and the politician's lack of direct action. If you do this, you can at least hold your head up.

As a weird sort of compliment, smart people are especially prone to depression because we are able to manufacture far more intricate webs of self-deception. Don't give into it. Resist the urge to wallow in despair. It's not worth it. I know, I'm never going back to that lonely, horrible place. Life is too short.

I wonder if another survivor in our midst has anything to add @Sunstone about depression.

I agree with you on that one and climate change is "depression central" when it comes to thinking about the future. There is a problem with how Climate Change has been "marketed" as all doom and gloom and it back fires horribly because people don't think they can do anything. Its as cynical propaganda as the climate change deniers but at least has the benefit of being somewhere near the "truth". It overstates the authority of the science though in a way scientists wouldn't even if it reaches the same conclusions and there is an ideological and political agenda behind making climate change seem worse than it is. I don't know who I hate more really; the "everything's fine" deniers or the "slit you're wrists and get sterilised" doomsdayers.

I read a book on Mars exploration and colonisation by Robert Zubrin and liked it. Zubrin is quite the nerd, awkward, obsessive, but extremely knowledgeable and with a practically minded idealism. He's the kind of person I can admire and imagine having long conversations obscure subjects that would interest no-one else except a fellow "nerd". A maverik idealist who just won't take "no" for an answer. So exactly the kind of person I'd get along with really well. It turned out he also wrote a book called "Merchants of Despair" which criticised the environmental movement and was "sceptical" about Climate Change. I gave it a read just because I liked the author and some of it did stick even if I wasn't sure about alot of it. It begged the question about how much I really know and how sure I am on the fine details so I have more time for "sceptics" than I once did. That was useful.

Later on I read some of Jullian Simon's "The Ultimate Resource" which also criticised many of the pessimistic assumptions behind resource depletion as empirically "weak" and very simplistic. He had depression and so I could completely relate to his motive for writing the book and that did help. There were fears of "peak coal" in the 19th century for example.

So yeah. I have made some room to be sceptical based on knowing how much I don't know. I'm a bit saner and happier for it. I'll have to keep working on it.

 

[Revoltingest]

As you'll know from my thread posted on Wednesday, things have not been going well. The past couple of days have been a mixture of shock, depression and a quiet restless rage. Something had to give way though and whatever it will be, I have needed a change and I have got something deeply wrong to reach this point.

Beyond that, I don't know what I really should be doing politically. As far as I can tell, Trump's withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement means that there will be 2 to 4 degrees of climate change. maybe more. It was never certain that the Paris agreement was going to be enough anyway. This is somewhat mitigated by efforts of state and city authorities to continue to uphold their targets in the agreement. But if you needed a big flashing red warning light that something is about to go terribly wrong, this was it.

This reality is not solely the product of Trump as he is symptom of a much larger problem. Even if he were impeached, Mike Pence would take his place (which is at least as bad), or maybe Paul Ryan would become President if Pence was implicated in impeachable offences. The Republican Party will continue to block impeachment proceedings. Even if the Democrats won the 2018 mid-terms and impeached Trump (far from certain), the Republicans will continue to be elected on that platform of actively sabotaging efforts to prevent catastrophic climate change based on a politically expedient denial. The Democrat Party is far from radical and whilst it may be "better" for the environment and the future, it is not clear simply having "better" will be enough. The US is the world's second largest polluter (behind China) so the "dysfunction" there will have global effects based on its environmental implications. Unless there is a nuclear war, this is the global historical legacy of the Trump administration and will have consequences for generations to come.

There are grounds for optimism at the speed with which renewable energy technologies are being adopted and prices have fallen. Things are very much in the balance and there is uncertainty about how responsive global temperature changes are to increasing concentration of greenhouse gases. But That's still a lot of unknowns when we are risking our only habitable planet.

So basically.... what do we know? Or am I just being overly pessimistic in looking at the situation?

First of all, it doesn't matter how you feel about GW.
So I recommend feeling good despite impending difficulties.

I agree that Trump is a small problem relative to the larger picture.
What's really going to sink us (excuse the histrionic pun) is inexorably increasing population.
All else pales in comparison because this drives deforestation, denuding the ocean of life,
expanding monocultural farming, loss of natural areas, hot micro-climates, & risk of famine.

 

[Enoch07]

I am going to stop you here only because this sentiment is rampant on these forums from those who drift further to the right. I think it is appropriate to remind folks that many who are upset with Trump are not upset that he was elected. They are upset with his actions since his election. Regarding environmental issues, I believe these emotions have merit.

While that ia true. You can clearly see that is not the case for the OP.

 

[Laika]

I think you're worrying excessively over issues that you can do almost nothing about. Which is a very frustrating place to be.

If humanity is going to destroy itself because it can't overcome individual greed, willful ignorance, and blind stupidity, then so be it. We will not have deserved to survive. We can call ourselves a valiant effort, in advance of our failure and extinction as a species. And no one will call us anything after we're gone.

I've been there. You're welcome to send me a private message if you need to chat. It sounds like your long overdue for someone to open up to.

 

[Lester Tryon]

The bottom line, as you already stated in the OP, is that we only have one habitable planet, with no concerted effort to find a way to explore/colonize some other one. So, aside from money, what is the downside of not polluting our home?

 

[PureX]

I've been there. You're welcome to send me a private message if you need to chat. It sounds like your long overdue for someone to open up to.

I don't know where you're getting all that from. We are what we are. I see no particular reason to pretend otherwise or to be wringing our hands over it. I love humanity, truly I do. But we are all patently insane. In fact, we are structurally insane, as our minds are cut off from the rest of existence by our bodies, with only little sensual "peepholes" through which we may glean information about the world around us. And then we have to imagine the reality of the world around us, inside our own heads, from what little information we can gain though our "peephole" senses, and our biased reasoning.

It's no wonder we're all nuts.

Perhaps humanity should destroy itself and make room for the emergence of a new life form. One with better sense mechanisms and less need to control and exploit it's environment.