What is your response to the question asked by those seated at the Pharisee's table?

[Betho_br]

Luke 7:36-50
King James Version

And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

Please be concise. Consider that the Christian Bible (New Testament) did not exist at the time of the Report. Thank you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Please be concise. Thank you.

(Apparently, Pharisee-bashing by a guy who never met Jesus continues to be de rigueur for some ...)

 

[firedragon]

(Apparently, Pharisee-bashing by a guy who never met Jesus continues to be de rigueur for some ...)

Hmm. Interesting.

Stating obvious facts, no one, who ever wrote a single letter in the Bible, ever met Jesus, according to the Bible itself and Bible scholarship. Let me say "By the way".

 

[Kathryn]

Well. it makes sense.

 

[John D. Brey]

(Apparently, Pharisee-bashing by a guy who never met Jesus continues to be de rigueur for some ...)

I don't get it? Your interlocutor offered no opinion or commentary on the question the Pharisees rendered. Which seem to imply that you find the question the Pharisees rendered problematic such that even putting the question in the hearts or mouths of the Pharisees has to be bashing them.

The Pharisee's question seems perfectly logical and healthy to me. Why do you suppose the question placed in the hearts or mouths of the Pharisees is problematic such that even putting it in their hearts or mouths is bashing them?



John

 

[John D. Brey]

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

Please be concise. Consider that the Christian Bible (New Testament) did not exist at the time of the Report. Thank you.

Could you be more concise with what you mean by saying the New Testament didn't exist at the time of the report? Do you have a report of the goings on external to, and older than, the New Testament?



John

 

[Shaul]

This Lucan version is at variance with those of the other gospels. Furthermore it has internal inconsistencies and is incongruous with first century CE Jewish culture. This narrative, in my opinion, appears to be a contrived fiction.

 

[John D. Brey]

This Lucan version is at variance with those of the other gospels. Furthermore it has internal inconsistencies and is incongruous with first century CE Jewish culture. This narrative, in my opinion, appears to be a contrived fiction.

While I don't necessarily agree with you, this is the sort of response that's at least useful in that it has something to fact-check and respond to. For myself I would say in this world all truth is garbed in the fore skene of what on the outside looks like internal inconsistencies. The circumcised mind has a sort of izmel it uses to cut through the outer garment or fore skene.

My izmel didn't come with a titanium blade such that I tend to limit how many organs or arguments I use it to cut through. I've been known to save the blade I have by sharpening my fingernail for less thick-skinned arguments.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

Please be concise. Consider that the Christian Bible (New Testament) did not exist at the time of the Report. Thank you.

Being as concise as possible, my first response is that the Pharisee's question would likely fit the responsa given (in response to Jesus' statement) that might come from any religious body of the time.




John

 

[Betho_br]

Could you be more concise with what you mean by saying the New Testament didn't exist at the time of the report? Do you have a report of the goings on external to, and older than, the New Testament?
John

Luke 24:27 King James Version
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded (διερμηνευσεν) unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

διερμηνευσεν to explain thoroughly, by implication to translate. According to the text of Luke 24:27, Jesus translated the writings (whether from Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek) into the language of his disciples. "Games" between word translation nations were even common. The Pharisees believed in the Law, but had particular interpretations, it is within this voluminous tradition that Jesus asked them the question, which also includes the woman.

 

[Betho_br]

This Lucan version is at variance with those of the other gospels. Furthermore it has internal inconsistencies and is incongruous with first century CE Jewish culture. This narrative, in my opinion, appears to be a contrived fiction.

Lucas indeed conducted an investigation, in many cases he was very precise in his use of words.

 

[Balthazzar]

Luke 7:36-50
King James Version

And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

Please be concise. Consider that the Christian Bible (New Testament) did not exist at the time of the Report. Thank you.

Larger debts equate to heavier burdens. Lesser debt equates to lesser burden. The intent is obvious enough to me. She was filled with guilt, and he did not condemn her in a time and era where the harshness of judgement was commonplace.

 

[Betho_br]

Being as concise as possible, my first response is that the Pharisee's question would likely fit the responsa given (in response to Jesus' statement) that might come from any religious body of the time.
John

Luke 7:50 King James Version
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Certainly the religious scope of the Pharisees was different from that woman:

Luke 7:39 King James Version
Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

 

[Betho_br]

Larger debts equate to heavier burdens. Lesser debt equates to lesser burden. The intent is obvious enough to me. She was filled with guilt, and he did not condemn her in a time and era where the harshness of judgement was commonplace.

After Jesus' question, we don't know if the woman responded inwardly; it is not recorded in the New Testament. It says that she achieved salvation, but salvation/liberation from what?

 

[Betho_br]

Isaiah 6:6-7King James Version
Then flew one of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

The Jews knew that divine beings forgave sins...

 

[Balthazzar]

After Jesus' question, we don't know if the woman responded inwardly; it is not recorded in the New Testament. It says that she achieved salvation, but salvation/liberation from what?

I'll presume that she was happy enough not being condemned by him after being disgraced by the pharisee with his apparent disdain for her.

 

[Betho_br]

I'll presume that she was happy enough not being condemned by him after being disgraced by the pharisee with his apparent disdain for her.

Using the logic taught in the Gospels ("Christians"), Jesus could not have offered salvation to that woman, as he had not yet died on the cross. In this case, salvation is different from justice.

 

[Shaul]

Lucas indeed conducted an investigation, in many cases he was very precise in his use of words.

That's one perspective. I don't share it.

 

[Balthazzar]

Using the logic taught in the Gospels ("Christians"), Jesus could not have offered salvation to that woman, as he had not yet died on the cross. In this case, salvation is different from justice.

I never suggested he offered salvation to her. I suggested she wasn't condemned by him like the others were doing.

 

[Betho_br]

That's one perspective. I don't share it.

There are so many distortions taught out there that listing them all would take a lifetime. I have no issues with the Holy Scriptures; in fact, I have paid a high price for decades because of it.So, over time, I realized that there are only very subtle differences in the teachings of Jesus concerning the Jews, true Christians, and Muslims.