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Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
There are no Muslims who don't question why it is that Jinn are only experienced in the cultures that believe in them and none outside those cultures do?...

Every culture, every race, every people have traditions surrounding Jinn... some call them ghosts, others fairies, others spirits, others call them "enter unique identifier here".

Arabs, call them Jinn. We all like to think we know about them, no one really knows much. We know very little.

Of course, we should play a game and see who knows most:

X-Files-David-Duchovny.jpg


only joking ;)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Every culture, every race, every people have traditions surrounding Jinn... some call them ghosts, others fairies, others spirits, others call them "enter unique identifier here".
This is it? This is your response to everything I went into considerable depth about to explain? Respectfully, I didn't think I was wasting my time in my responses, that you would come up to some level of challenge. I'm not feeling that here, and I'm losing interest quickly. Do you have anything else you can offer in response?

As far as the above, yes, every culture has their superstitions. It's all part of that developmental thing I referred you to with Fowler's stages. It does not in one iota suggest since you see magical thinking in all these cultures it means they are scientifically true. Children believe in invisible friends pretty universally. It doesn't mean they are actually real. They outgrow that, at some point. And the same thing holds true for these stories of "Jinn" or other magical creatures. People outgrow these sorts of beliefs into some much more mature understanding.

You never did answer my repeated question directly. Speaking the truth, do you know of any Muslims who do not believe in these? If no, do you believe ALL Muslims worldwide all believe exactly like you? I think your silence may be the answer.
 

Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
do you know of any Muslims who do not believe in these? If no, do you believe ALL Muslims worldwide all believe exactly like you? I think your silence may be the answer.

No, I don't know any Muslims who don't believe jinn exist. As for the Muslims around the whole world? Dude.... are you seriously asking me to answer this? I haven't been all around the world, nor have I interviewed every single Muslim in the world to ask them what you want to know - so no, I can't possibly answer such a dumb question!

Can I ask you a question now too?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Hi YmirGF,

are you implying that Muslims often know more about the Bible than Christians do?

peace
I didn't watch the video, but I'd guess that if the Muslim is a scholar, and the Christian is a layman, then whatever the video is meant to portray is already skewed in favor of one side.
 

Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
I didn't watch the video, but I'd guess that if the Muslim is a scholar, and the Christian is a layman, then whatever the video is meant to portray is already skewed in favor of one side.
Neither are scholars nor are they laymen.

The Muslim, is quite harsh in other videos which I have seen but the gentle nature of the Christian in this video (rare for Christians who attend speakers corner btw) bought out a gentler side to the Muslim as well. It was very refreshing to watch this, and the end where they hug it out had me smiling.

The discussion itself was also very interesting. You can read about some of it in this thread (if you are so inclined).

Peace
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I don't know any Muslims who don't believe jinn exist. As for the Muslims around the whole world? Dude.... are you seriously asking me to answer this? I haven't been all around the world, nor have I interviewed every single Muslim in the world to ask them what you want to know - so no, I can't possibly answer such a dumb question!
It's not a dumb question. It's a question to make a point to you. It's intended to open you to understand that not all people in any given religion all believe the same as you or the one's you are familiar with. Given that it is a safe assumption there are Muslims who are sincere in their faith, who do not believe Jinn are really real, just as there are Christians who do not believe literally in the miracle stories about Jesus, how do you account for the differences? How in your mind do you understand them? Apostates, backsliders, evil, or something else?

I referred you to Fowler's stages, and you have not offered any response to any of those things, other than to simply argue Jinn are real because they're written about in the Koran. Jesus walking on water is written of in the Bible too, yet not every believer believe that literally. How do you deal with that? Do you see where there can be different stages of faith that looks at and handles these things differently?

What started this line of discussion was about how there are people at the magic and mythic-literal stages in all faiths, but not everyone is. Magical thinking exists in all religion, but just because it does does not mean the beliefs are factual at the level of science and rationality. "Jinn are really real because it talks about them in scripture," does not work for those who realize things in larger contexts.

For instance, you claim the way to understand scripture is reading it in context of the book, but do you read the book in the larger context of cultural studies, anthropology, comparative religions studies, ethnology, mythic studies, etc.? In that far larger context, you see the scripture itself as not outside of all that, but a product of all of that. Then how the mind holds it is going to naturally be different than those who just take the scripture as "fact" completely ignoring, and not including any realization of how all these things are actually in play, so they end up with a single-pointed, highly colorized view on it. My question isn't dumb, it's directional.

Can I ask you a question now too?
Most certainly. Ask whatever you want.
 
Last edited:

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Notice Jeremiah 31:15. There's no prediction here. Matthew knows his audience is not ignorant of this, and it is well established that Matthew is an educated person. He writes like one. He's not making mistakes in ignorance. Nobody reading Jeremiah 31:15 thinks "Oh this is clearly a prediction." Matthew is saying something other than Jesus fulfills prediction X. He is talking about something very important that Hamza has overlooked.

I highlighted a few parts of Jeremiah 31, to help us both understand how 31:15 IS a prediction:

At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
3 The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”
7 This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord—
the grain, the new wine and the olive oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then young women will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,”
declares the Lord.
15 This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
16 This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
“They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“Your children will return to their own land.
18 “I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:
‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the Lord my God.
19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,”
declares the Lord.
21 “Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.
22 How long will you wander,
unfaithful Daughter Israel?
The Lord will create a new thing on earth—
the woman will return to the man.”
23 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity,[c] the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

27 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord. 29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I highlighted a few parts of Jeremiah 31, to help us both understand how 31:15 IS a prediction:

At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
3 The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”
7 This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord—
the grain, the new wine and the olive oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then young women will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,”
declares the Lord.
15 This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
16 This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
“They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“Your children will return to their own land.
18 “I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:
‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the Lord my God.
19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,”
declares the Lord.
21 “Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.
22 How long will you wander,
unfaithful Daughter Israel?
The Lord will create a new thing on earth—
the woman will return to the man.”
23 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity,[c] the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

27 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord. 29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
Nice! Maybe it is identifiable as a prediction, then; however is it identifiable as a prediction that small children in Bethlehem are going to be massacred to herald the arrival of the last prophet? That would be a prognostication with a fulfillment, but lets not leap to conclusions. What I can see is a more general prediction about the waves of purification and suffering that wash up on the shore in cycles. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, and I'm sorry about that. The Song of Moses talks about this cycle of Israel falling away and then being brought back and how it is for purifying them into something eternal. So they have this ongoing theme where they lose people but the survivors are more prepared for the future to carry on and proceed with Abraham's wish. So Rachel grieves for all of the times that there is suffering, not one time.

That Jeremiah mentions the children of Rachel is more specific than saying children of Jacob, however Rachel has three tribes: Benjamin, Ephraim and Manasseh. These are not confined to one city though her tomb is in Bethlehem. The burden of showing Jesus is someone special lies in proving that he represents the ultimate Jew, the finished result of all of the purification. However Jesus preaches that his kingdom is not of his own era. In other words he's not going to see the results of his labor in his lifetime. In other words his work is the only proof that he is the messiah, and until that work is done only those who believe can see that he is the messiah. Matthew does not attempt to prove Jesus is the messiah, because that is a pointless endeavor. It is not how conversion is supposed to work.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Nice! Maybe it is identifiable as a prediction, then; however is it identifiable as a prediction that small children in Bethlehem are going to be massacred to herald the arrival of the last prophet? That would be a prognostication with a fulfillment, but lets not leap to conclusions. What I can see is a more general prediction about the waves of purification and suffering that wash up on the shore in cycles. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, and I'm sorry about that. The Song of Moses talks about this cycle of Israel falling away and then being brought back and how it is for purifying them into something eternal. So they have this ongoing theme where they lose people but the survivors are more prepared for the future to carry on and proceed with Abraham's wish. So Rachel grieves for all of the times that there is suffering, not one time.

That Jeremiah mentions the children of Rachel is more specific than saying children of Jacob, however Rachel has three tribes: Benjamin, Ephraim and Manasseh. These are not confined to one city though her tomb is in Bethlehem. The burden of showing Jesus is someone special lies in proving that he represents the ultimate Jew, the finished result of all of the purification. However Jesus preaches that his kingdom is not of his own era. In other words he's not going to see the results of his labor in his lifetime. In other words his work is the only proof that he is the messiah, and until that work is done only those who believe can see that he is the messiah. Matthew does not attempt to prove Jesus is the messiah, because that is a pointless endeavor. It is not how conversion is supposed to work.

Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate answer. I hear you loud and clear.

We could step through hundreds of OT/NT fulfillment instances and then dissect many of them to say the prophecy was not as linear as we modern rationalists would like. Fortunately, Christ rose from the dead! That's a good one to focus on. :)
 
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