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What just happened?
- Thread starter Mohsen
- Start date
I think it represents that Christians are people of faith who have a Bible and take it seriously. Christians are an important group of people. I did not find either speaker particularly expert in the gospels.
At minute 53 the fellow with the red beard says the Christian's problem is that he keeps falling back on the 'Old Testament' which does not support him, and then says he's going to prove that the author of Matthew is a liar. His opponent is weak and does not understand Matthew. Thus he is vulnerable to this strategy. At minute 58 the man says that the 3 day resurrection suggests Matthew has been embellished, creating doubt in the Christian. In fact there is no prediction in the Tanach predicting a three day resurrection. In this he is correct, but in fact nowhere in Tanach are the fulfillments of Matthew predicted. Both opponents in the conversation are ignorant of this, that Matthew is not a literal book.
The main point of contention, as usual, surrounds the death and resurrection of Jesus. Neither opponent understands just how non-literal Matthew is. This is more embarrassing for the Christian, since he is the loser of the debate. The fellow with the red beard assumes falsely that Matthew is lying. His opponent who is not a strong Bible student finds that he has built his foundation on sand.
At minute 53 the fellow with the red beard says the Christian's problem is that he keeps falling back on the 'Old Testament' which does not support him, and then says he's going to prove that the author of Matthew is a liar. His opponent is weak and does not understand Matthew. Thus he is vulnerable to this strategy. At minute 58 the man says that the 3 day resurrection suggests Matthew has been embellished, creating doubt in the Christian. In fact there is no prediction in the Tanach predicting a three day resurrection. In this he is correct, but in fact nowhere in Tanach are the fulfillments of Matthew predicted. Both opponents in the conversation are ignorant of this, that Matthew is not a literal book.
The main point of contention, as usual, surrounds the death and resurrection of Jesus. Neither opponent understands just how non-literal Matthew is. This is more embarrassing for the Christian, since he is the loser of the debate. The fellow with the red beard assumes falsely that Matthew is lying. His opponent who is not a strong Bible student finds that he has built his foundation on sand.
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Fella with the red beard (hamza) claimed he is writing a book about the Gospel of Matthew, did you see that part?
I'm honestly quite unsure of what really just happened in this video. It seems a little scripted but I know it can't be because this was filmed at speakers corner,
Peace
Sorry I did not see all of it. I thought both very polite people.
No, I did not detect scripting. Some people are very good at public dialogue. I think that Hamza feels that he is ready to convert all the Christians to Islam, but he is mistaken. The gospel of Matthew has been around for a long time. I do think that he will win this argument every time he speaks to 60% of fundamentalist Christians. I think they are quite vulnerable, but it does not mean they will convert. It is possible that he will break them, and they will become discouraged. He should be careful.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Very well put, @Brickjectivity
It is for reasons such as the above that I've often cautioned Christians from getting into deep discussions with Muslims especially if they have only superficial knowledge of what they are talking about.
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Hi YmirGF,
are you implying that Muslims often know more about the Bible than Christians do?
peace
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
No, much of Muslim's knowledge is based on misunderstanding/misreading. It's more the angle that they can attack from that will spin the Christian's head around. Most won't see it coming and won't expect it. It's sort of a Spider and the fly type thing.
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
No, much of Muslim's knowledge is based on misunderstanding/misreading. It's more the angle that they can attack from that will spin the Christian's head around. Most won't see it coming and won't expect it. It's sort of a Spider and the fly type thing.
I wonder if you've seen the Paul Williams show on YouTube? A theologian who used to be Christian but is now Muslim did a YouTube video series on the very same topic - the bible and Christianity - Its on the same channel as the video in the OP
The Paul Williams Show - YouTube
From what I can gather, I disagree with you due to the evidence mounting up in favour of the Muslims who actually read the bible contextually, and with a keen eye on its canonisation and the dynamics surrounding its many versions and competing theologies !!!
Peace
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Sounds reasonable. If they lose debates on their own scripture, they will more likely lose faith in God and not convert to a new religion.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Heck, anyone with 1/2 a brain can poke holes in the theology of most religions, Islam included. It proves little other than theology is like Swiss cheese.
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Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Paul Williams and Hamza are actually poking holes - as you say - in the bible(s), their history and canon and the dynamics surrounding Christianity - as well as the competing theologies. It's not just the theology. It's everything!!!
Peace
Edit: I still don't quite know what happened in this video (first post) lol
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Not being a Christian, their efforts mean little to me. I've argued with Muslims for long enough to know that Islamic theology has holes in it so large one could fly a 767 through, with ease. It's low hanging fruit and part of the reason there are so many denominations in Christendom.
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
That's new lol
Islamic theology is sound ! Built on the firmest foundations! I'd like to know what you mean though? And i do have time tonight to entertain your 767
Shall we dance?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
It rather depends how bored I am, really.
I've written so much about Islam over the last 12 years that it gets pretty dull after awhile. Oh, and for the record your sound theology is literally a house of cards.
Mohsen
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
You are good at making blanket statements and building straw men, and then running off from the challenges you seem to want to push by hiding behind 12 years of unemployment and claiming this as your caveat?It rather depends how bored I am, really.
Simmer down homeslice
I'm bored, so you can be my entertainment for the night.It rather depends how bored I am, really.
I think the premise of debating these things that they are "delivered by God and we're going to prove ours is and yours is not!", is like arguing which of the Teletubbies is the real-deal. But it does provide an exercise in argumentation for that reason alone.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I was fortunate enough to retire from the workforce at age 50. If you wish to see that as unemployment you are welcome to but some of us did well enough to sit back and take in the view.You are good at making blanket statements and building straw men, and then running off from the challenges you seem to want to push by hiding behind 12 years of unemployment and claiming this as your caveat?
Simmer down homeslice
In all fairness, @mohan you are welcome to start a one on one discussion in the appropriate forum and I will entertain your points. Part of my reluctance is that, after so many years, I know, in advance, that you will dismiss most of my points and concerns.If you create the thread, just tag me and I'll notice it. For example, @Mohsen
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