What motivates atheists (and/or materialists) to deny the will?

[viole]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

Well, if In Bhagavata Gita (whatever that is), Shri Krishna (whoever that is) teaches as above, then I am sure we should take it seriously

Ciao

- viole

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

To be honest, I don't see how your question relates to your "verses" about the senses and intellect.
They seem to deal with different topics.

As for the actual question... I'm an atheist and I don't see how I "deny my own will"...

As for the statements / claims of what is "superior" to what... To me, they are all manifestations of the same thing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, ok...

To deny the subconscious. Lust, fear, anger etc...?

None of these are things that I deny.

 

[Nakosis]

None of these are things that I deny.

Yeah, I understand. Not everyone reigns in their fear, hatred, lust.

I used to put holes in the wall when I was angry. Didn't do the wall or my hand any good. So I learned to deny my initial feelings of anger and rationally look at the situation before I reacted.

 

[halbhh]

Since you have said anyone can participate...

I don't understand your question because I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that atheists deny their own will. It seems self-evident to me that atheists don't deny their own will.

Besides, I was raised to think that the spirit is superior to the mind and that the mind is superior to the body. But I can tell you that one of my biggest realizations was that none of them is superior per se.

You may be interested to read this famous short account from a determined experimenter who had the time and inclination to test being led by all of these, one after another:

by the senses,
the will,
by the desires of the body,
even by wisdom...

...and who found out interesting things about their ultimate qualities --

Ecclesiastes 1 ESV

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

 

[Polymath257]

Yeah, I understand. Not everyone reigns in their fear, hatred, lust.

I used to put holes in the wall when I was angry. Didn't do the wall or my hand any good. So I learned to deny my initial feelings of anger and rationally look at the situation before I reacted.

I think he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.

He doesn't deny the *existence* of those things. But some times you want to give in to your desires and at other times not. To have a healthy balance is the key, not just to deny some fantastic aspects of existence.

 

[Nakosis]

I think he wasn't saying what you think he was saying.

He doesn't deny the *existence* of those things. But some times you want to give in to your desires and at other times not. To have a healthy balance is the key, not just to deny some fantastic aspects of existence.

Yes but I think the intent of the OP was what motivation do we have to better ourselves. In religion one tries to rise above "mundane" maybe materialistic behavior? To remove the "materialistic" illusions. Deny in this sense means to not be controlled by them.

IOW what motivates us to better ourselves if it is not to escape the materialistic illusion.

To me, in this life, seems there is obvious benefits to being driven more by rationality than emotions.

Denying "materialistic" drives is a "good" thing. It's not a derogatory statement towards atheists.

 

[Koldo]

You may be interested to read this famous short account from a determined experimenter who had the time and inclination to test being led by all of these, one after another:

by the senses,
the will,
by the desires of the body,
even by wisdom...

...and who found out interesting things about their ultimate qualities --

Ecclesiastes 1 ESV

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

I feel atheists deny free will to be fatalists, "Jesus will have to force me to believe in Him, otherwise I never shall," which is, of course, an assertion/affirmation of free will!

 

[Polymath257]

Yes but I think the intent of the OP was what motivation do we have to better ourselves. In religion one tries to rise above "mundane" maybe materialistic behavior? To remove the "materialistic" illusions. Deny in this sense means to not be controlled by them.

IOW what motivates us to better ourselves if it is not to escape the materialistic illusion.

How about the desire to be a better person? More compassionate, more fair, a more helpful member of society, a better partner, etc? I don't see how being a physicalist (materialist) denies any of these motivations.

To me, in this life, seems there is obvious benefits to being driven more by rationality than emotions.

I might agree with that statement, but I don't think that denying either rationality OR emotions leads to being a healthy person. Both are essential aspects of our existence. They just need to be in balance.

Denying "materialistic" drives is a "good" thing. It's not a derogatory statement towards atheists.

I think it is more a matter of context. There needs to be a balance, but to deny them completely seems to be an evil and not a good. Lust is good in a marriage, for example. Anger against injustice is a good thing if it motivates you towards change. To deny hunger for too long will kill you.

 

[Nakosis]

How about the desire to be a better person? More compassionate, more fair, a more helpful member of society, a better partner, etc? I don't see how being a physicalist (materialist) denies any of these motivations.



I might agree with that statement, but I don't think that denying either rationality OR emotions leads to being a health person. Both are essential aspects of our existence. They just need to be in balance.



I think it is more a matter of context. There needs to be a balance, but to deny them completely seems to be an evil and not a good. Lust is good in a marriage, for example. Anger against injustice is a good thing if it motivates you towards change. To deny hunger for too long will kill you.

The point IMO is to only do it enough to know you can exert conscious control. IDK and "spiritual" balance. Denying the flesh, as you point out can go to extremes.

 

[Nakosis]

I feel atheists deny free will to be fatalists, "Jesus will have to force me to believe in Him, otherwise I never shall," which is, of course, an assertion/affirmation of free will!

I don't deny free will and really have no problem with Jesus. It's mainly Christianity and Paul I don't see a lot of benefit in.

 

[Polymath257]

The point IMO is to only do it enough to know you can exert conscious control. IDK and "spiritual" balance. Denying the flesh, as you point out can go to extremes.

I don't use the word 'spiritual' since I am an atheist and a physicalist. But that doesn't mean we can't use our intellect to choose how we want to respond to the world around us.

The point, to me, isn't the control. it is the fact that such control leads to a happier and healthier life.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't use the word 'spiritual' since I am an atheist and a physicalist. But that doesn't mean we can't use our intellect to choose how we want to respond to the world around us.

The point, to me, isn't the control. it is the fact that such control leads to a happier and healthier life.

Exactly, that's the answer. I don't need the concept of perfecting my soul to want to better my life.

 

[ChristineM]

I feel atheists deny free will to be fatalists, "Jesus will have to force me to believe in Him, otherwise I never shall," which is, of course, an assertion/affirmation of free will!

Atheism is not about JC but about god or gods. Of course some people believe JC was a fragment of the abrahamic god but even in that case there is no evidence of god or evidence that JC was the illigitimate son of a god.

Anyway lack of evidence is not force, provide falsifiable evidence of god then there will be a lot of ex atheists

 

[McBell]

I fail to see how this:

What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

Has to do with or even relates to this:

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

 

[blü 2]

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

The lack of a credible option.

The brain works by chains of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect ─ interwoven with great complexity, but equipped for decision-making of a great range of kinds.

Since the present best view is that in QM there are events that are authentically random ─ uncaused in terms of classical physics ─ it may be that such events are occasionally capable of disrupting the brain's chains of cause+effect. If so, that will break the idea of strict determinism, but it won't lead to free will.

In my view if something is immaterial, then the only thing it can be is imaginary; if anyone has an objective test that can tell the difference, I'd be glad to hear it. The same is true of things said to be 'supernatural'. 'spiritual', 'divine' &c. That would mean the soul, and any other aspect of humans thought of as capable of acting independently of the body's physical makeup (in some contexts 'mind', for example) were imaginary.

So if we postulate an immaterial soul, BY WHAT PROCESS does it decide, for example (a) whether it is safe to cross the road (b) whether to have the chocolate or the strawberry icecream (c) whether to switch the trolley to the other track, thus limiting the number of casualties to one?

If it's free of cause+effect, then the only thing it can be is random, no?

 

[Kapalika]

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

The Charvakas were hardcore skeptics they didn't believe in much of anything. (not sure if anyone would still identify with that sect today)

But more generally? Deterministic tend to not believe in the more main religions, although I could see deterministic arguments for Hinduism. I would imagine that since only one one course of events ever unfolds in the Universe at large some people can't fathom other possible outcomes as "real" since they never happened. I can kind of understand that perspective but I don't think that negates the role of consciousness in determining at least in part what it does.

Well, if In Bhagavata Gita (whatever that is), Shri Krishna (whoever that is) teaches as above, then I am sure we should take it seriously

Ciao

- viole

Geeze dude who's that Yeshua guy and that Bible thing?

To seriously answer, it is a section of the Hindu religious epic, the Mahabharat. It is considered a holy text, particularly to the Viashnavas, and Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu. Vishnu is a Hindu deity, central to Viashnavaism.

 

[Fool]

This question is mainly for Hindus, but anyone can participate.

In Bhagavata Gita, Shri Krishna teaches as below.

Chapter 3: Karma-yoga

42. indriyāṇi parāṇyāhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

The senses are superior to the gross body, and superior to the senses is the mind. Beyond the mind is the intellect, and even beyond the intellect is the soul.

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā sanstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.
​

The above teaches that the Soul (jivatma) is superior to intellect and that superiority is to be harnessed to gain control over lust etc.. To me this seems self-evident.

I have a question. What may be the motivation of Chaarvaaks and materialist-atheists to assertively deny their own will?

...

materialists = matter over mind?

 

[Aupmanyav]

43. evaṁ buddheḥ paraṁ buddhvā samstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śhatruṁ mahā-bāho kāma-rūpaṁ durāsadam

Thus knowing the soul to be superior to the material intellect, O mighty armed Arjun, subdue the self (senses, mind, and intellect) by the self (strength of the soul), and kill this formidable enemy called lust.

And Atanu, you have a problem in translation. What you have added in brackets after self is not there in the original. You are imparting your own meaning to self. Atman does not mean strength of the soul.

evam - thus; buddheḥ - to intelligence; param - superior; buddhvā - knowing; saṁstabhya - by steadying; ātmānam - the mind; ātmanā - by deliberate intelligence; jahi - conquer; śatrum - the enemy; mahā-bāho - O mighty-armed one; kāma-rūpam - in the form of lust; durāsadam - formidable.

"Thus knowing better than to intelligence by steadying your self yourself, conquer the formidable enemy which is in the form of lust, O mighty-armed.
"samstabhyātmānam ātmanā": steadying your self yourself (Nobody else is going to do that for you. This is what you have to do yourself).
"Subdue the self yourself", beyond that what you wrote is your take.

Similarly, in 3.42, The verse does not mention 'soul'. It says 'sah', which normally means 'he'. I would have been happier if Gita had used the word for 'it' rather than 'sah'. Because brahman is 'it' and not 'sah'.