Father Heathen
Veteran Member
You first.
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What sacrifice do muslims use for their sins?
- Thread starter Thorwald Johansen
- Start date
You first.
kai
ragamuffin
Who me? I dont want any.But Thorwald Johansen he does. Now you can believe in your Holy Book just as Christians do thats all you and they need. He wants more.
I want to have muslims THINK and not just blindly accept their faith. Why do they believe that Muhammad is a true prophet? What is their proof? From my research, I can find no proof. There is just some guy called Muhammad, that apparently was in a trance, receiving instructions from God. Whoopie!!!!!!!
Yo, Thorwald.Did you believe the presence of wind? We felt it presence but we cant see its with our naked eyes. Even you conducted an experiments, still can you see the wind?
Same as here. You need to read about Muhammad(prophet) story before you making any assumptions. I do think you just read about Islam on the surface.
"You need to know more about something before you say anything",by Robert William.
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A Thousand Suns
Rationalist
Neat trick! I use a book that contains writings that are not witnessed, in order to back up the truth of the book. Try again.
Thorwald, I know you hard to believe about Islam. BUt the god gave us five senses, seeing, thinking etc.. You use this senses to determine between other religion and Islam which one is wrong!! And i willing to bet my life that you cant find even slightest mistake in Islam..
To all people who doubt Qoran, hear this...
Alif Lam Mim. Book Al Quran, there is no doubt (about the coming of God and the completion of) it is guidance for those who (want to) fear: that people who believe in things unseen, and establish (working ) prayer and spend (in charity) a part of that We have bestowed on them. And those who believe in the Book revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and the Book from before thee, and they are sure (the) Last Day (fully), they are the ones who are getting guidance from God, and they are the ones who succeed.
In Al Quran.
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kai
ragamuffin
OK Right, so you are basing your faith on things like that sentence?
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Regarding judging other religions and determining which part of them is wrong or right:
The Prophet said this regarding judging the Gospel, in essence asking Muslims not to judge it:
ما حدثكم أهل الكتاب فلا تصدقوهم ولا تكذبوهم، وقولوا آمنا بالله ورسله، فإن كان باطلاً لم تصدقوه، وإن كان حقاً لم تكذبوه
Translation: Whatever the people of the book have narrated to you so neither believe them, nor disbelieve, and just say we believed in Allah and his Apostles. That's so you don't believe it if it was false, and you don't disbelieve in it if it was true.
As for how belief of Muslims comes about, the first thing to understand is that the meaning of the word "belief" in the Quran is more closer to "knowingness". Maybe it is a bad choice of words for the Western audience, but there it is. Belief in the terminology of Islam does not carry with it the notion of choosing without understanding, but that of gaining knowledge such that the Truth becomes self-evident. The Quakers had a similar term "convincement". Secondly, to believe in Islam is to understand firstly, that there is a Reality which in its entirety is beyond human comprehension and there is an underlying Unity(wahdat) to that Reality. All the universe but for man is harmonious with that essential Unity and it remains but for man to submit(meaning come into the state of Islam, Islam literally means submission) with that Unity.
Thirdly, the Quran asks men to reflect upon the nature of things, the relationship between man, God and the universe, and to understand this message, so that it becomes self-evident. It clearly states that those who are merely submitting outwardly to the message are not believers and should not refer themselves as such.(49:14) Believers are those for whom this knowledge enters their hearts and its validity becomes self-evident to them. It does say that the message has been present in all nations(16:36) in various ways as per their tradition and language (14:4) and explicitly states that people who have followed the true message in other ways are also praiseworthy and good.
There are other similar verses such as (5:69).
(Note: The numbers in brackets indicate Quranic verses)
Regards
The Prophet said this regarding judging the Gospel, in essence asking Muslims not to judge it:
ما حدثكم أهل الكتاب فلا تصدقوهم ولا تكذبوهم، وقولوا آمنا بالله ورسله، فإن كان باطلاً لم تصدقوه، وإن كان حقاً لم تكذبوه
Translation: Whatever the people of the book have narrated to you so neither believe them, nor disbelieve, and just say we believed in Allah and his Apostles. That's so you don't believe it if it was false, and you don't disbelieve in it if it was true.
As for how belief of Muslims comes about, the first thing to understand is that the meaning of the word "belief" in the Quran is more closer to "knowingness". Maybe it is a bad choice of words for the Western audience, but there it is. Belief in the terminology of Islam does not carry with it the notion of choosing without understanding, but that of gaining knowledge such that the Truth becomes self-evident. The Quakers had a similar term "convincement". Secondly, to believe in Islam is to understand firstly, that there is a Reality which in its entirety is beyond human comprehension and there is an underlying Unity(wahdat) to that Reality. All the universe but for man is harmonious with that essential Unity and it remains but for man to submit(meaning come into the state of Islam, Islam literally means submission) with that Unity.
Thirdly, the Quran asks men to reflect upon the nature of things, the relationship between man, God and the universe, and to understand this message, so that it becomes self-evident. It clearly states that those who are merely submitting outwardly to the message are not believers and should not refer themselves as such.(49:14) Believers are those for whom this knowledge enters their hearts and its validity becomes self-evident to them. It does say that the message has been present in all nations(16:36) in various ways as per their tradition and language (14:4) and explicitly states that people who have followed the true message in other ways are also praiseworthy and good.
There are other similar verses such as (5:69).
(Note: The numbers in brackets indicate Quranic verses)
Regards
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TheKnight
Guardian of Life
What makes you think sacrifices are necessary for the forgiveness of sins? Christianity is the only religion that teaches that (that I know of).
How about you do some thinking. Imagine:
You're a Jew 2,000 years ago. You have the Tanakh (Old Testament) and you live in an occupied Jerusalem where many different people are making divine claims.
Jesus comes along and starts to preach "I can save you from your sin! Just believe in me and I can save you! I will be executed, and then will rise again bringing salvation from sin and hell!"
What would your response be? What has been the response for most Jews?
The response would be "Wait, who said I need to be saved from my sins?"
How about you answer that. Why was Jesus sacrifice necessary? Because, in case you didn't know oh great thinker, The Old Testament already lays out specific means for the forgiveness of sin (I'll give you a hint, sacrifice isn't necessary).
You want Muslims to think?I want to have muslims THINK and not just blindly accept their faith. Why do they believe that Muhammad is a true prophet? What is their proof? From my research, I can find no proof. There is just some guy called Muhammad, that apparently was in a trance, receiving instructions from God. Whoopie!!!!!!!
How about you do some thinking. Imagine:
You're a Jew 2,000 years ago. You have the Tanakh (Old Testament) and you live in an occupied Jerusalem where many different people are making divine claims.
Jesus comes along and starts to preach "I can save you from your sin! Just believe in me and I can save you! I will be executed, and then will rise again bringing salvation from sin and hell!"
What would your response be? What has been the response for most Jews?
The response would be "Wait, who said I need to be saved from my sins?"
How about you answer that. Why was Jesus sacrifice necessary? Because, in case you didn't know oh great thinker, The Old Testament already lays out specific means for the forgiveness of sin (I'll give you a hint, sacrifice isn't necessary).
McBell
Admiral Obvious
based on what?... would it not mean, that all of their sins would still be with them, on judgement day?
I mean, other than you illogical notion that Islam requires the same "sacrifices" as Christianity?
kai
ragamuffin
I have read the Quran and the Bible thanks, your faith is based on the Quran, a Christians faith is based on the Gospels what's the difference in real terms.I know, i know, your book is true theirs isn't ,but that's all a matter of faith isnt it.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
After a 'lifetime' of reading the Bible, experiencing certain things, and communicating with others of various faiths, praying several times per day, etc., I DO think a lot, throughout every day. I experienced two visions and a dream in riddles, in 2006, and spent six and a half years in research, communication with other faith members/ministers, and research of historic battles from the Helenistic period to the present.
In the first vision, I actually 're-lived my birth'. In the second vision, I was in the presence of The Son. The dream was very revealing, and I was 'asked to do a job', which I agreed to. I was then awakened, and told to write the dream down. I am now doing what I agreed to do.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
Here we go again. Using what is written in a book, to prove that what is written is actually true, without any proof/witnessing by others. Neat trick.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
What do you think 'priests' were anointed for, in the O/T? The Israelite tribe of Levi were chosen to provide priests to offer sacrificial lambs. Unforunately, God also became fed up with their sacrifices, because the Israelites simply offered sacrifices, but returned to their sinful ways. The sacrifices 'lost their meaning', much the same way as divorce became 'common', and not used in a godly fashion.
If you do not believe that we must be 'saved' by sacrifice, I can't help you. The scriptures (KJV Bible) states otherwise.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
you 'think' wrong.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
Based on the Holy Bible N/T.....a continuation and fulfilment of O/T prophesies. You have to remember, that Arabs are gentiles. The Word of God came by way of the Israelites....The Chosen Children Of God. A gentile can teach a true Israelite, nothing, concerning God's Word. God teaches His chosen people, directly.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
The disciples, and the thousands of others who heard Christ's sermons outdoors.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
Evidently, you do not understand the scriptures in the Holy Bible. The muslim religion is that of the gentiles, which is in conflict with that of the Israelites, the chosen children of God. The O/T and N/T are based on ISRAELITES, from which, God chose His Word to be disclosed, and taught to both the gentiles and Israelites. The problem that we face today, is that the gentiles have created (through vanity), changes to the true Word of God.
What do you mean??? You don't have faith?? Then, you agreed that the world occurs naturally? The complex process of human being, day and night event and the process of vegetation give us a hint about the creator.And I never said that about bible. I said its makes me confused only.
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