What Should Be Done About Erotic Dance?

[Sunstone]

From my point of view there is a difference between being an object (every physical thing is an object of some sort) and being treated as a sexual object.

Getting tripped up and tangled by semantics alone can be easy, don't you think?

 

[Sunstone]

.

As I said before, education of patrons is key.

Good point, I think.

 

[Poeticus]

What should be done about erotic dance?

Bring all dem erotic dancers over to my crib for a game of Twister!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Are the customers sexually objectifying the dancers any better or worse than the dancers financially objectifying the customers?

 

[Sunstone]

I am both. You are displaying a false dichotomy. There are many definitions of object. I fall on some and dont fall on others. In any case, what I would say without doubt is that my body is an object, a sexual one at that.

I would be very troubled if no one saw me body as a sexual object, yes, absolutely.

Your false (and extremely weird) dichotomy is that you are either an object or a person. The weird part is that if I show a man a replica of a woman's body so perfect it looks real and he has an "equally" good looking woman at his right telling him she wants to do stuff to him, how many men do you think would choose the object instead of the actual person?

Real objects cant move creatively or be part of a conversation or of sexual communication (and sex is sexual communication/stimulation)

I can understand if you tell me that a guy who is more ttracted to women when they are unconscious is a guy who treats them as if they were nothing but objects. That's reasonable.

A guy who likes them dancing and making expressions of lust and interacting with him? obviously aint looking for an object. Similar non real stuff can be found on porn in the internet, but then the "object" would be the recording of the woman, not the woman so there would be no obejctification there either.

It's pretty easy to get confused by the language itself, isn't it?

 

[Sunstone]

Are the customers sexually objectifying the dancers any better or worse than the dancers financially objectifying the customers?

Interesting point, albeit a wee bit off topic. I would guess that there's a moral equivalence, Kilgore. But someone might argue there is much less of a case for an equivalence in terms of the practical harm that is done to society on a whole by sexual objectification versus financial objectification. What's your own take on it?

 

[Sunstone]

To see someone as a person is to consider them as a human being and recognise their human traits. To see someone as an object is to see them as something to be used for personal gain, pleasure etc. IMO anyway.

I think you're on the right track there, but I would add that to see someone exclusively as an object is the crux of the problem.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Interesting point, albeit a wee bit off topic. I would guess that there's a moral equivalence, Kilgore. But someone might argue there is much less of a case for an equivalence in terms of the practical harm that is done to society on a whole by sexual objectification versus financial objectification. What's your own take on it?

Not to take it even more off topic, but I suppose my entire take on objetification is that it is integral to human interaction on multiple levels, and all human beings regularly practice objectifying people around them in all sorts of ways. As to whether it's harmful or not, or whether some types are more harmful than others, I guess I would equate that to asking whether people should stop breathing because oxidation causes so much cell damage. Truthfully, I find it's probably a complex topic to meaningfully discuss, largely because of problematic bridging of semantics with concepts.

 

[Sunstone]

"Objectification." What's the difference between a person and an object anyway?

A person is someone you accept and deal with as they are. For instance: If you meet someone who is intelligent, then you accept her intelligence and deal with her as an intelligent person.

"A sex object" is someone you refuse to accept and deal with as they are. For instance: If you meet someone who is intelligent, then you either refuse to accept her intelligence and deal with her as an intelligent person because you value her only in terms of her sexuality, or you accept her intelligence, but see it only in terms of her sexuality ("Hey, you're smart! I bet that means you know how to give blowjobs!).

Does that help?

 

[Sunstone]

Not to take it even more off topic, but I suppose my entire take on objetification is that it is integral to human interaction on multiple levels, and all human beings regularly practice objectifying people around them in all sorts of ways. As to whether it's harmful or not, or whether some types are more harmful than others, I guess I would equate that to asking whether people should stop breathing because oxidation causes so much cell damage. Truthfully, I find it's probably a complex topic to meaningfully discuss, largely because of problematic bridging of semantics with concepts.

Thanks! I'm waffling back and forth between being a stickler for the OP and departing from the OP in this thread. Both have benefits.

I think you can make a good case for your notion that objectification is in some ways necessary. I'm certain you can make a good case for the notion it is ubiquitous in any number of forms.

I'm just not sure that, no matter how hard it might be in practice to not objectify, that it is actually impossible to not objectify. You see, I think I myself am able to attend strip clubs without objectifying the women. But the problem with using myself as an example is that I'm both delusional and crazy, so I'm an unreliable witness.

As for the semantics of it, Kilgore: The responses in this thread that are ****** up for no better reason than semantics is both hilarious and enough to make a sane person despair of humanity. Thank goodness I'm not sane.

 

[Sunstone]

So would promoting male strip dancing help? Since somehow if both sexes do something it doesn't "objectify" one anymore.

I don't know what you mean by "objectify" in this context. Your statement does not make sense to me if you mean by objectify what I mean by objectify.

 

[Sunstone]

What about male strippers? Anyone complaining about them? I mean I'm a male femnist but this seems to be a bit far. Either reform ALL erotic dance for the sake of whatever you fight for or don't at all. Magic mike seemed to objectify men but no one seemed to care.

Indeed! What about male strippers? Perhaps you would care to start a new thread about male strippers, if the issue is of genuine concern to you, and you are not actually trolling this thread. But this thread is about women strippers.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Get more Men into erotic dancing...if we are going to discriminate we should at least do it equally.

 

[Sunstone]

I dont think that the sexual excitement itself is the issue...

I think you are right, but I also think there is a sense in which sexual excitement is indeed the issue. That is, some people are prudes. Quite a few people, actually, are prudes. And in America, at least, the prudes are apt to try banning erotic dance for no better reason than they have a deep aversion to the thought someone besides themselves might become sexually excited by it. At least, that's how I see it. I'm only half trying to be humorous, too.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I think you are right, but I also think there is a sense in which sexual excitement is indeed the issue. That is, some people are prudes. Quite a few people, actually, are prudes. And in America, at least, the prudes are apt to try banning erotic dance for no better reason than they have a deep aversion to the thought someone besides themselves might become sexually excited by it. At least, that's how I see it. I'm only half trying to be humorous, too.

Well we come from a society/culture that has for the majority of its existence viewed women as either

Baby Makers

Tempters

Idiots

Weak

and overall the reason why there's death in the world (Thanks Eve!), so I'm not at all surprised that erotic dancing is an issue.

But overall I chuck it up to victim blaming.

 

[Sunstone]

I completely disagree with the premises, but, for the sake of discussion and given I was forced to those two options...

This is by no means the first time you have done this. It is not even the second time you have done this. It is only the most recent time you have done this.

I'm pretty certain you are an intelligent enough person that you could, if you wanted to, start your own thread. And I'm even almost as certain that you are intelligent enough to come up with premises for that thread that you completely agree with. So it puzzles me (and it is beginning to anger me) that you always act as if you wish to derail my threads with childish whining about how much you disagree with their premises, etc, etc, etc.

I want you to stop doing that.

 

[Sunstone]

But overall I chuck it up to victim blaming.

Interesting. Why victim blaming? Would you elaborate, please?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Interesting. Why victim blaming? Would you elaborate, please?

Well the way I look at it. A woman dancing erotic is an issue because of

1. She shouldn't be showing her body like that and needs to respect her body (which implies that she doesn't, which may not be true).

2. This idea that she doesn't respect her body is reflected in people who believe because she is into erotic dancing means that any advances they make at her is justified because
A. Those who respect themselves would not put themselves in such a position.
B. She's asking for it.

Overall it becomes the person who is dancing who is responsible for making sure you do not act on your desires. Not yourself.

 

[Sunstone]

Give the workers a voice. Whether it's through unionizing...

I think unions would vastly improve things.

I think unionization is a great idea.

As I see it, unionization of the workers would mainly benefit the workers themselves, but would do little to change their audience's tendency to view them as sex objects. However, unionization could conceivably result in resources being made available to, say, educate the audience. Perhaps, for instance, the union demands that a portion of the cover charges be turned over to pay for educational efforts. Ad campaigns, say.

 

[Revoltingest]

Tis clear that the dancers are doing the best they can, so the greatest opportunity
for reform is in their audience. We need more caring & enlightened voyeurs.