What technically constitutes an "intoxicant"?

[StarryNightshade]

This is based on a comment in another thread which talked about the 4 regulations found in Gaudiya and other schools. More specifically, I want to talk about the fourth regulation: not taking in any intoxicants.

What exactly constitutes as an intoxicant, what is the limit and/or where is the line drawn?

I know the common answer for this is alcohol and, by extension, things like tobacco or other smoking substances, but this further poses another question:

Is it really an intoxicant if someone knows their limits, only does it occasionally, and it doesn't severely alter their senses?

For example, alcohol. If one is not careful, it can really mess up their senses. Yet, if someone only drinks socially for a little at a time, what is so inherently bad about it? The same goes for tobacco. I don't drink, but when I did, it was strictly social and it would only be a glass of wine or a beer or two; no where near enough to get me buzzed, let alone drunk.

To use me as another example, I love me some coffee and tea. And yet, many consider those to be intoxicants because of their caffeine. However, they're not all I drink and I do know when to stop on any given day (usually after 2 or 3 cups).

Again, although the substances themselves can cause intoxication, if one knows their limits and doesn't abuse them, do they really go against the 4th regulation? Are they inherently "bad" in and of themselves?

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Hi, Starry, and a fine good morning to you
You might be able to ascertain a satisfactory answer for yourself if, instead of examining the caveats, you examined the rationale behind them? The "dos and don'ts" are laid out for us by the Masters to tell us that if we do certain things, it will speed up our journey to the goal and if we do certain other things, the journey will continue but successfully reaching the goal will be delayed. Not ended, delayed. If you're OK wid dat timeline, be OK with it and don't give yourself a ration of grief about it. You alone choose and are accountable for the funds in your karma bank... as well as when those funds are exhausted.

 

[Terese]

One that negatively clouds the mind, and pulling you further away from spirituality. That's my take. There are intoxicants that don't necessarily do this, as it depends greatly on the person, but if it's a distraction from your duties, put it away i say.

 

[Vinayaka]

The human body, as is the soul, is individual. I think it wise to allow for this when discussing what's conducive to spirituality or not. Still, we shouldn't be fooled.

In the vast array of Hinduism, different sects follow different guidelines. I asked my Guru once, "How much coffee is too much coffee?" (This was over coffee.) He smiled and simply said, "Well, ____, I think every coffee drinker has had to face that question."

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Starry ji

depends greatly on the devotee and the seriousness with which each takes their sadhana , ....

what is an intoxicant ? initialy anything which clouds or distorts the mind , ...but if we were to reflect more deeply upon this , it is also anything (food or substance wise which is adictive) upon which we might come to rely or feel we canot function without as our focus should be orientated towards realisation of the supreme not towards satiating desires , ...

the goal of the yogi is realisation or oneness with the supreme through cultivating purity , self control and peacfullness , the Goal of the devotee is to atain knowledge of the supreme through cultivating the mode of goodness , Cultivating such a mode requires a degree of austerity , moderating both ones actions and ones diet , acting only in the mode of goodness and eating only satvic foods , therefore avoiding intoxicants also entails avoiding Tamasic and Rajasic foods which either dull the mind or cause an increase in passion , .....Satvic foods incline the devotee to wards physical ballance and mental equanimity as it is in this state that one may best attain wisdom and knowledge of the supreme .

.

 

[SomeRandom]

If a glass of wine is shown to be beneficial to human health (and I'm talking about just one glass with dinner) then does it still damage the soul?
If mind altering drugs are strictly against karma, are we excused when morphine is injected into our body in a hospital?
Is a desperate parent using marijuana oil upon their child for purely medical relief reasons (with medical supervision of course) damaging their karma or fulfilling their dharma as a parent?
Does this existence of grey areas in life mean there are "safe" levels of intoxicants that excuse the karmic bank?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Its not really about the intoxicants direct ability to mess with the senses, rather it is the underlying desire behind it (which is the desire to please the senses). I mirror Tereseji's sentiment; if it acts as an obstacle to Bhakti then it should be given up.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A cup of coffee or tea, or a glass of wine is no hinderance to sadhana. So, do not feel guilty.

 

[Purusha]

I would never touch alcohol in my life, never and nor the other stuff like cigars. I don't need them for anything for I have all I need.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

If a glass of wine is shown to be beneficial to human health (and I'm talking about just one glass with dinner) then does it still damage the soul?
If mind altering drugs are strictly against karma, are we excused when morphine is injected into our body in a hospital?
Is a desperate parent using marijuana oil upon their child for purely medical relief reasons (with medical supervision of course) damaging their karma or fulfilling their dharma as a parent?
Does this existence of grey areas in life mean there are "safe" levels of intoxicants that excuse the karmic bank?

One probably ought to take the results of various investigations into the health benefits (or not) of this and that substance with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've lived long enough to watch the scientific/medical establishment change their views 180 degrees several times even on just this issue of wine, for instance. And it must be remembered, too, that they are only examining data which exists in the physical realm, affecting the physical body. They do not test for the effects in realms they cannot "see" or "touch" or "smell"--you get my drift. Also, it's good to remember that, when we're discussing karma, soul cannot be damaged at all, ever. Sri Krishna sings this truth without equivocation.

Life's choices may seem to present as shades of grey, but the law of karma does not. The mechanics of cause and effect are not amenable to alteration (except perhaps by a special gift of grace bestowed by God or guru). In my opinion, this is "good." Basically it means that no one gets special favors so even if one's ego is enticed to "be gooder, do gooder," it doesn't alter the karma bank's "account balance." In fact, ego needs to be taught that the very fact that it is "doing things" is the root cause of karma in the first place. How to deal with this? Again, Sri Krishna's Song to the rescue: "Offer all unto Me. Do your duty, do whatever you do! But offer the fruits of your acts to Me." Thus, in implementing this teaching, we learn to give God all the praise, all the blame, all the pleasures, all the pain. The day will come when He says (regarding certain fruits we keep offering) that He's had enough, thanks. It's our tamed ego's job to listen up and acquiesce to His hint in that very moment.

So, no, in answer to your question. No excuses. How "safe" or "intoxicating" something is or how much or how little one imbibes has no bearing on the results insofar as invoking the mechanism of karma (but the extent of its impact will vary). However, that doesn't mean we (as individuals, parents, whatever) don't or won't weigh our choices and consent to taking on more karma if we feel the sacrifice is worth it. And then we hustle to remember even in the moment of the doing to offer that up, too. It's a practice and acquired skill until it becomes your norm. Such peace to be enjoyed when the jiva gets this down pat. The ration of angst we unnecessarily put ourselves through; it's simply not helpful. I am constantly admonishing devotees to break their personal whips over their knees, toss the splinters aside and abandon self-loathing. Holding those kinds of thoughts doesn't help get us to the goal at all.

Guruji said it so succinctly, "If you meditate on darkness all the time, how will you reach the Light?!"

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram ji

If a glass of wine is shown to be beneficial to human health (and I'm talking about just one glass with dinner) then does it still damage the soul?
If mind altering drugs are strictly against karma, are we excused when morphine is injected into our body in a hospital?

it is not so much about damaging the soul and much more about imparing the body or dulling the inteligence , ...

there is one other way to answer this question of intoxicants , ....at least for a Gaudiya Vaisnava , .....

if it is not an offerable substance then we also will not take it ourselves as we will take only Prasada (food that has allready been offered)

I think when we speak of intoxicants this refers to any substance food , drug or drink which has a Rajasic or Tamasic efect on the body or the mind , therefore avoiding all foods and substances whch cause either stupour or over stimulation , ...it is simply recomended that we stick to health giving foods those which nourish the body and ballance the mind , we are looking to attain Satvic clarity .

Starry ji asks , .....

What exactly constitutes as an intoxicant, what is the limit and/or where is the line drawn?

Is it really an intoxicant if someone knows their limits, only does it occasionally, and it doesn't severely alter their senses?

to me line is drawn by dividing Satvic from Rajasic and Tamasic foods, ... Satvic foods are pure and offerable ,Rajasic and Tamasic foods are impure and in one way or another dull or over excite the mind , or poison the bodily system . Rajasic and Tamasic foods when taken in moderation may not affect us in an outwardly vissable sence in much the same way that a poison might not visably affect us but its effect may be cumulative .

so how can we say ''I know my limits'' when taking a food or substance which dulls the mind ? we think we know because we canot feel any effect , but this does not mean that there is no efect , only that the efect is too subtle to be noticed at that point .

Is a desperate parent using marijuana oil upon their child for purely medical relief reasons (with medical supervision of course) damaging their karma or fulfilling their dharma as a parent?
Does this existence of grey areas in life mean there are "safe" levels of intoxicants that excuse the karmic bank?

to me it is not so much a case of damaging the childs karma by giving it an intoxicant , ..as karma is action then the child would have to comit this action himself for it to efect his sanchita karma and as the child is inocent of the descisions of the parents or the doctors then why should he suffer ? ...but if for instance a drug commonly classed as an intoxicant is used wisely by a physician then it should not cause harm , but this is not realy a grey area , ...
We will not take medicinal drugs unless we are sick , Likewise we should not take strong substances unless there is an exact reason to do so , ....if we do we may cause an imballance in the body .

A true viasnava might look very differently at this scenario and ask why does my baby need medical releif ? he may ask what is the reason for the use of strong and possibly damaging drugs , he may ask if the problem can be solved in another way but he will certainly ask which is the best for my baby , ..

but this scenario is a far cry fron the question of how many coffee's is too many or can I have just one glass of wine ?

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Swami ji

One probably ought to take the results of various investigations into the health benefits (or not) of this and that substance with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've lived long enough to watch the scientific/medical establishment change their views 180 degrees several times even on just this issue of wine, for instance

Jai Jai , ....well observed ! ....what is even more disturbing is that one wonders whos employ they are in when publishing their findings

or is it that they simply wish to justify their own taste or cultural conditioning ?

And it must be remembered, too, that they are only examining data which exists in the physical realm,

even better , .....but sad because with use of intoxicants even in their mildest forms the mind will not become sufficently clear enough to see beyond the bodys physicality .

hey do not test for the effects in realms they cannot "see"

and better still , ....Haa Haa this is perfect ! ....to experience such realms outside of physical reality one must take the leap of faith and follow shastric instructions to the T as only through such apparent austerities can we become light enough to expreience any other realm , ...Ha !... then when we do , ..we loose all taste for the physical noncence of this world we do not worry for the taste of a little coffee or wine as there is something much sweeter to be tasted .

 

[Vinayaka]

If we judged intoxicants by how it interferes with meditation or sadhana, the lack of a good night's sleep would be an intoxicant. I say this partly in jest, but also to demonstrate how individual it all is. Not just that, but guidelines vary by sect. Another variation is prescription meds or cold medication. That said, I never drink or smoke, but do have coffee in AM.

 

[SomeRandom]

it is not so much about damaging the soul and much more about imparing the body or dulling the inteligence , ...

there is one other way to answer this question of intoxicants , ....at least for a Gaudiya Vaisnava , .....

if it is not an offerable substance then we also will not take it ourselves as we will take only Prasada (food that has allready been offered)

I think when we speak of intoxicants this refers to any substance food , drug or drink which has a Rajasic or Tamasic efect on the body or the mind , therefore avoiding all foods and substances whch cause either stupour or over stimulation , ...it is simply recomended that we stick to health giving foods those which nourish the body and ballance the mind , we are looking to attain Satvic clarity .

I don't understand Ratikala-ji. Doesn't that also include vegetables like Onions which literally are health giving?
How does something like an onion produce a Rajasic or Tamasic effect?
And wine is associated with lower risk of heart disease, lower risk of stroke and even a prolonged life. (Again, one glass with a meal. Not a bottle.)
And in Fiji it is routine to offer the substance Kava, which is like a mild drug. I have had to imbibe a bit due to it being Prasada at certain Temples. (Ew give me Vodka any day.) Is this adharmic?

to me it is not so much a case of damaging the childs karma by giving it an intoxicant , ..as karma is action then the child would have to comit this action himself for it to efect his sanchita karma and as the child is inocent of the descisions of the parents or the doctors then why should he suffer ? ...but if for instance a drug commonly classed as an intoxicant is used wisely by a physician then it should not cause harm , but this is not realy a grey area , ...
We will not take medicinal drugs unless we are sick , Likewise we should not take strong substances unless there is an exact reason to do so , ....if we do we may cause an imballance in the body .

A true viasnava might look very differently at this scenario and ask why does my baby need medical releif ? he may ask what is the reason for the use of strong and possibly damaging drugs , he may ask if the problem can be solved in another way but he will certainly ask which is the best for my baby , ..

but this scenario is a far cry fron the question of how many coffee's is too many or can I have just one glass of wine ?

Hmm. I suppose so.

 

[SomeRandom]

One probably ought to take the results of various investigations into the health benefits (or not) of this and that substance with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've lived long enough to watch the scientific/medical establishment change their views 180 degrees several times even on just this issue of wine, for instance. And it must be remembered, too, that they are only examining data which exists in the physical realm, affecting the physical body. They do not test for the effects in realms they cannot "see" or "touch" or "smell"--you get my drift. Also, it's good to remember that, when we're discussing karma, soul cannot be damaged at all, ever. Sri Krishna sings this truth without equivocation.

Life's choices may seem to present as shades of grey, but the law of karma does not. The mechanics of cause and effect are not amenable to alteration (except perhaps by a special gift of grace bestowed by God or guru). In my opinion, this is "good." Basically it means that no one gets special favors so even if one's ego is enticed to "be gooder, do gooder," it doesn't alter the karma bank's "account balance." In fact, ego needs to be taught that the very fact that it is "doing things" is the root cause of karma in the first place. How to deal with this? Again, Sri Krishna's Song to the rescue: "Offer all unto Me. Do your duty, do whatever you do! But offer the fruits of your acts to Me." Thus, in implementing this teaching, we learn to give God all the praise, all the blame, all the pleasures, all the pain. The day will come when He says (regarding certain fruits we keep offering) that He's had enough, thanks. It's our tamed ego's job to listen up and acquiesce to His hint in that very moment.

So, no, in answer to your question. No excuses. How "safe" or "intoxicating" something is or how much or how little one imbibes has no bearing on the results insofar as invoking the mechanism of karma (but the extent of its impact will vary). However, that doesn't mean we (as individuals, parents, whatever) don't or won't weigh our choices and consent to taking on more karma if we feel the sacrifice is worth it. And then we hustle to remember even in the moment of the doing to offer that up, too. It's a practice and acquired skill until it becomes your norm. Such peace to be enjoyed when the jiva gets this down pat. The ration of angst we unnecessarily put ourselves through; it's simply not helpful. I am constantly admonishing devotees to break their personal whips over their knees, toss the splinters aside and abandon self-loathing. Holding those kinds of thoughts doesn't help get us to the goal at all.

Guruji said it so succinctly, "If you meditate on darkness all the time, how will you reach the Light?!"

This makes sense.

I guess I have trouble balancing my inclination towards science and my spiritual journey.

 

[Vinayaka]

Forgot to mention sugar. Surely it's well documented that it's a stimulant, and quite unhealthy. Still many sects don't speak out against it. Don't get me started on allergies!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I guess I have trouble balancing my inclination towards science and my spiritual journey.

Luckily, I have been able to resolve the problem completely.

 

[Chakra]

This makes sense.

I guess I have trouble balancing my inclination towards science and my spiritual journey.

Actually, people forget to realize that red wine's benefits come from the benefits of grapes, and people are better off just eating seed-filled grapes.

 

[SomeRandom]

Actually, people forget to realize that red wine's benefits come from the benefits of grapes, and people are better off just eating seed-filled grapes.

To be fair, grapes are sold and priced according to seasons. So grapes might not always be available year round where a person lives. Wine on the other hand, well tell me when that isn't available.
And I for one prefer year round benefits to heart health.

 

[निताइ dasa]

And in Fiji it is routine to offer the substance Kava, which is like a mild drug. I have had to imbibe a bit due to it being Prasada at certain Temples

This is actually interesting to hear. I was raised in Fiji too, but whenever the people would drink Kava at religious gatherings, it was almost taboo thing.We never used it for religious offerings because we considered it to be impure (it clouded the senses and made people behave like animals sometimes). I fact, Kava was grouped together with alcohol.