What technically constitutes an "intoxicant"?

[SomeRandom]

This is actually interesting to hear. I was raised in Fiji too, but whenever the people would drink Kava at religious gatherings, it was almost taboo thing.We never used it for religious offerings because we considered it to be impure (it clouded the senses and made people behave like animals sometimes). I fact, Kava was grouped together with alcohol.

Maybe it's a different region thing or a perhaps the group had a more.........relaxed interpretation?
Where were you situated? My family is from Ba.
I know my mother strongly disagrees with the practice, but imbibes it when it is offered as Prasada.

 

[Chakra]

To be fair, grapes are sold and priced according to seasons. So grapes might not always be available year round where a person lives. Wine on the other hand, well tell me when that isn't available.
And I for one prefer year round benefits to heart health.

I understand, but it is still the grapes (not the alcohol) that results in the benefits, especially for breast cancer among women.
It all points to how people should eat more vegetables and fruits to maintain a healthy body.

But trust me, I don't really care if people want to drink red wine now and then. My personal philosophy is that if you don't harm any living entity or the planet, it's good enough.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What does not cloud my thinking, what does not impell me towards adharmik deeds, what does not hinder my spiritual quest, IMHO is permissible.

 

[ShivaFan]

When you take so much, it is too much, thus "toxic"... taking IN too much until you are borderline toxic. Like for example, sugar can be an intoxicant if you eat an entire flour size bag of sugar. In fact, you could die. If you drink too much water, you won't be in a normal state of mind with all those electrolites, you could die.

Too much of ANYTHING.is an intoxicant at some level.

In one way, you are also an intoxicant. Some say that about me, anyways. They want to "drug" themself with me. But that is also a way of consuming me. But I don't want that too much.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Where were you situated? My family is from Ba.
I know my mother strongly disagrees with the practice, but imbibes it when it is offered as Prasada.

I'm from nakasi (born in suva). My father is from labasa though. Yeah I guess it also depend on the puja. For example for devi puja, it is generally okay, but form things like ramanayan puja it is not done.

 

[SomeRandom]

I understand, but it is still the grapes (not the alcohol) that results in the benefits, especially for breast cancer among women.
It all points to how people should eat more vegetables and fruits to maintain a healthy body.

But trust me, I don't really care if people want to drink red wine now and then. My personal philosophy is that if you don't harm any living entity or the planet, it's good enough for the gods.

Well I don't really drink wine to be honest. I was just being flippant

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm from nakasi (born in suva). My father is from labasa though. Yeah I guess it also depend on the puja. For example for devi puja, it is generally okay, but form things like ramanayan puja it is not done.

Oh cool.
Yeah now that you mention it I do believe I had to drink some during pujas for Devi.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well I don't really drink wine to be honest. I was just being flippant

Keep it th at way. Better.

@Nitai Dasa That is right. Devi puja or Bhairava worship may allow wine. Actually, in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Punjab, Delhi, etc. (North India) drinkers dedicate the first few drops to Mata with the slogan 'Jai Mata ki/di (if Punjabi knowing)' before starting their binge.

 

[SomeRandom]

Keep it th at way. Better.
.

I don't know if drinking spirits is better than drinking wine, Uncle.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is the same, son, if one knows his/her limits.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ji

I don't understand Ratikala-ji. Doesn't that also include vegetables like Onions which literally are health giving?
How does something like an onion produce a Rajasic or Tamasic effect?

onion and Garlic produce heat and enliven a passionate nature , this might be fine for the warrior classes who' Dharma it is to be hot tempered , but for the serious devotee this can be a hinderance to maintaining ones ballance or equilibrium

And wine is associated with lower risk of heart disease, lower risk of stroke and even a prolonged life. (Again, one glass with a meal. Not a bottle.)
And in Fiji it is routine to offer the substance Kava, which is like a mild drug. I have had to imbibe a bit due to it being Prasada at certain Temples. (Ew give me Vodka any day.) Is this adharmic?

Eating pure sattvic foods will already be a very healthy diet , a person eating a pure vegetarian diet of fresh home prepaired food stuffs is in the best position to have a healthy heart , if we eat a ballanced healthy diet , eating at the right time and in moderation we will not need the efect of onion or garlic to lower the blood presure only someone in a position of physical stress from over eating the wrong foods , or mental stress from over excitment will need to reduce their blood pressure , ...as far as virus protection and imune system are concerned if we eat and sleep well live a medative lifestyle we should not be stressing our imune system so there is not the need to finfd other substances to protect it , ....

is it Adharmic for a Kali devotee ? ....no not realy , that is the mode of Kali worship , ..but to a Vaisnava this worship would be considered to be in the mode of passion , it is not so much adharmic simply in a different Mode , ...but for instance . A Vaisnava who has taken Vows of abstanance has a different Dharma , so for me it would be against my Dharma , but for a non initiate visiting a temple with freinds he may take this Prasada {in modderation} without fear of being Adharmic , ...

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

What exactly constitutes as an intoxicant, what is the limit and/or where is the line drawn?

My personal definition: any substance capable of suppressing the senses. I don't see necessity in the drawing of lines beyond those imposed by the user. Obviously there is a load of scientific information to be gleaned about the various substances, which may be useful.

I know the common answer for this is alcohol and, by extension, things like tobacco or other smoking substances, but this further poses another question:

Is it really an intoxicant if someone knows their limits, only does it occasionally, and it doesn't severely alter their senses?

The user's experience with the substance dictates their degree of control of the substance. The first time I got drunk, I really over-did it. With subsequent use, one becomes a little bit more clever about the volume, concentration, and timing with which to achieve the desired level of intoxication. However, as many have discovered, long term use of almost any substance can reveal hitherto unknown qualities of the substance as well as those of one's self. At that point, one's understanding of control becomes quite confused.

For example, alcohol. If one is not careful, it can really mess up their senses. Yet, if someone only drinks socially for a little at a time, what is so inherently bad about it? The same goes for tobacco. I don't drink, but when I did, it was strictly social and it would only be a glass of wine or a beer or two; no where near enough to get me buzzed, let alone drunk.

Of course, nothing is inherently bad, so I really don't find it useful to compare it (or anything for that matter) in such terms. Good and bad are dependent on pre-formed definitions.

To use me as another example, I love me some coffee and tea. And yet, many consider those to be intoxicants because of their caffeine. However, they're not all I drink and I do know when to stop on any given day (usually after 2 or 3 cups).

I think that's a reasonable approach to caffeine consumption. Personally, I don't consume caffeine. Makes me anxious and jittery. But that's a personal choice based on my understanding of my own body.

Again, although the substances themselves can cause intoxication, if one knows their limits and doesn't abuse them, do they really go against the 4th regulation? Are they inherently "bad" in and of themselves?

I know nothing of "the 4th regulation," so I can't speak to that, but I can say that no substance is inherently bad, and I would argue that nothing is "inherently bad." Obviously moderation and balance is key.

 

[SomeRandom]

onion and Garlic produce heat and enliven a passionate nature , this might be fine for the warrior classes who' Dharma it is to be hot tempered , but for the serious devotee this can be a hinderance to maintaining ones ballance or equilibrium

I guess that makes sense, Ratikala-ji. But if garlic and onion produce heat, what about the staple diet of the regular Indian Hindu?
I mean surely cardamom (which is used in like everything, even sweets) Turmeric and chili must produce even more heat. Does this throw out balance as well? Or is their effect different?

Eating pure sattvic foods will already be a very healthy diet , a person eating a pure vegetarian diet of fresh home prepaired food stuffs is in the best position to have a healthy heart , if we eat a ballanced healthy diet , eating at the right time and in moderation we will not need the efect of onion or garlic to lower the blood presure only someone in a position of physical stress from over eating the wrong foods , or mental stress from over excitment will need to reduce their blood pressure , ...as far as virus protection and imune system are concerned if we eat and sleep well live a medative lifestyle we should not be stressing our imune system so there is not the need to finfd other substances to protect it , ....

I can agree with that. Healthy life, healthy mind, healthy body.

is it Adharmic for a Kali devotee ? ....no not realy , that is the mode of Kali worship , ..but to a Vaisnava this worship would be considered to be in the mode of passion , it is not so much adharmic simply in a different Mode , ...but for instance . A Vaisnava who has taken Vows of abstanance has a different Dharma , so for me it would be against my Dharma , but for a non initiate visiting a temple with freinds he may take this Prasada {in modderation} without fear of being Adharmic , ...

I suppose that's why there is such a diverse amount of dietary restrictions among Hindus. Different sects different rules.
But I still don't fully understand. Kali worship would be passionate, so I would understand why some substances normally "forbidden" would be acceptable to ingest during a Kali Puja. But why would the black Mother accept something like Kava? It's effects are more akin to weed or a mild dose of morphine. It slows one down, not the other way around.
Is it to represent the calming effect Lord Shiva has on Ma Kali?

Hmm, I know so little about the Mother and the ways of her path. I guess it's hard to know when no one else in your family (alive anyway) is a Kali devotee.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When you take kava as prasad you are not taking it to get drunk on it. That makes a difference. Perhaps like in tantric practices, taking a small amount dissuades you to consume in a large quantity. Kill poison with poison. Perhaps for the same reason, they put sex-act sculptures on temple panels. It is sort of a catharsis. Once you are in temple, you forget that and concentrate on devotion. Like not trying to force thoughts to go in meditation.

 

[निताइ dasa]

There is also a Puranic reason why we don't eat onion and garlic (because onion and garlic came from the flesh of a cow). Whether the story was literal, or allegorical, I know that ayurveda for example only allows the consumption of onion and garlic as medicine. They are not in sattva guna therefore cannot be offered to the diety, and hence eaten by Vaishnavs.

 

[SomeRandom]

When you take kava as prasad you are not taking it to get drunk on it. That makes a difference. Perhaps like in tantric practices, taking a small amount dissuades you to consume in a large quantity. Kill poison with poison. Perhaps for the same reason, they put sex-act sculptures on temple panels. It is sort of a catharsis. Once you are in temple, you forget that and concentrate on devotion. Like not trying to force thoughts to go in meditation.

You mean kind of like getting it out of your system in a way? To teach moderation?
Certainly a pragmatic approach.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, sort of. Seen such panels at many temples. May be a giggle or a smile. Kama is a part of life. Never made a difference once I was in. One knows that they are in a different world.

 

[Bhairava]

Tough subject to comment on. All I know is I heard Zen Monks drink tea with caffeine to help stay awake for meditation; I wouldn't do that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A cup of tea is the beginning and end of the day for me. I want to avoid sugar in tea. I will ask my wife to prepare pink Kashmiri (Ladakhi/Tibetan) Salt tea - Sheer Chai (it can be boiled endlessly).