What the New Testament says about God is true

[YoursTrue]

I am not even sure what your beliefs are anymore.

we can get to that later if time permits.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not exactly, Trailblazer. I'd like to go over that later because I have to do some research. For starters, though, I generally do not refer to the writings in the Bible as the New Testament but rather as the Christian Greek Scriptures.

Ok, I need to amend that, @Trailblazer . The Bible I accept as inspired can be called the Hebrew Scriptures (what many call the "Old Testament") and the Christian Greek Scriptures (what many say is the "New Testament"). Once again...later and thanks.

 

[Sumadji]

Yes, and sometimes to a fault.

But I have to push the issue: you deny that you give the NT any credit for depicting the real Jesus as a part reason for not having time to read the NT, while continually quoting selected extracts out of context from the NT to back your arguments?

I guess it won't change anything. But I think you might like the real Jesus that you find there

A reminder that according to the NT Jesus taught daily in the temple in Jerusalem and was sometimes referred to as Rabbi. He knew the Hebrew scriptures very well.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i faith is based on the Quran, which considers Adam, Noah, Abraham, Hud and Jesus to be prophets, along with others, including Job and Jonah. The Quran contains stories that echo Christian apocryphal accounts: the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and others. It's unlikely Baha'u'llah knew much about the Jewish or Christian scriptures, beyond what he heard and what the Quran had to say about them. I could be wrong, but I think it's unlikely he read the Old or New Testaments. Abdul Baha followed up and did a bit more study

Yeah, Baha'u'llah's story about Noah doesn't have the Ark or the Flood in it. And then I've asked Baha'is which version of the birth of Jesus do they believe in... The one in the Quran that has Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm? Or the ones in Luke and Matthew that have Jesus being born in a manger in Bethlehem?

How can they answer that any other way but to say the Quran is correct, because for them, God told Muhammad how it happened. With the Gospels, are Baha'is going to trust what Matthew and Luke said over Muhammad?

Here's the Baha'i version of Noah...

The Báb referred to Noah as a Manifestation of God who came after Adam,[1] and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá confirmed the Biblical genealogy designating Adam as an ancestor of the Patriarchs in the Bible.[2]​

​

Bahá’u’lláh refers to Noah in the Kitab-i-Iqan describing Him as a Prophet who attempted to bring security to His people through His teachings and being persecuted as a result writing:​

​

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him!"[3]​

Then about the Quran being more authoritative than the Bible...

Regarding the station of Islam and Muhammad a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi states the following:​

. . . Muhammadanism is not only the last of the world religions, but a fuller Revelation than any one preceding it. The Qur'án is not only more authoritative than any previous religious gospel, but it contains also much more ordinances, teachings and precepts, which taken together constitute a fuller Revelation of God's purpose and law to mankind than Christianity, Judaism or any other previous Dispensation. This view is in complete accord with the Bahá’í philosophy of progressive revelation, and should be thoroughly accepted and taught by every loyal Christian Bahá’í.[​

 

[Trailblazer]

But I have to push the issue: you deny that you give the NT any credit for depicting the real Jesus as a part reason for not having time to read the NT, while continually quoting selected extracts out of context from the NT to back your arguments?

I did not say that the NT not depicting the real Jesus is part of the reason for not having time to read the NT.

I said: But not only don't I have time, I don't have interest. Religion has never been a topic of interest for me. I am familiar with the Baha'i Writings because it is my religion, not because I enjoy reading scriptures.

I do quote certain verses but not out of context. I cannot quote the entire Bible or even a whole chapter on a forum post, but I can assure you that I have read that entire chapter that I am quoting from.

If Christians do not like the verses I post and my argument that goes with them, they are free to try to refute my argument.

I guess it won't change anything. But I think you might like the Jesus you find there

I might like that Jesus but I do not want to find a Jesus in the NT unless it is the real Jesus.
I prefer to believe in the Jesus who is depicted in the Bahai Writings because I know that is the real Jesus.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

A reminder that according to the NT Jesus taught daily in the temple in Jerusalem and was sometimes referred to as Rabbi. He knew the Hebrew scriptures very well.

"He knew the Hebrew scriptures very well."

Do you have a point to make about that?

 

[Sumadji]

Yeah, Baha'u'llah's story about Noah doesn't have the Ark or the Flood in it. And then I've asked Baha'is which version of the birth of Jesus do they believe in... The one in the Quran that has Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm? Or the ones in Luke and Matthew that have Jesus being born in a manger in Bethlehem?

How can they answer that any other way but to say the Quran is correct, because for them, God told Muhammad how it happened. With the Gospels, are Baha'is going to trust what Matthew and Luke said over Muhammad?

Here's the Baha'i version of Noah...

The Báb referred to Noah as a Manifestation of God who came after Adam,[1] and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá confirmed the Biblical genealogy designating Adam as an ancestor of the Patriarchs in the Bible.[2]​

​

Bahá’u’lláh refers to Noah in the Kitab-i-Iqan describing Him as a Prophet who attempted to bring security to His people through His teachings and being persecuted as a result writing:​

​

Then about the Quran being more authoritative than the Bible...

Regarding the station of Islam and Muhammad a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi states the following:​

Thanks. Bingo. There you have it:

". . Muhammadanism is not only the last of the world religions, but a fuller Revelation than any one preceding it. The Qur'án is not only more authoritative than any previous religious gospel, but it contains also much more ordinances, teachings and precepts, which taken together constitute a fuller Revelation of God's purpose and law to mankind than Christianity, Judaism or any other previous Dispensation. This view is in complete accord with the Bahá’í philosophy of progressive revelation, and should be thoroughly accepted and taught by every loyal Christian Bahá’i"

 

[Trailblazer]

Then about the Quran being more authoritative than the Bible...

Regarding the station of Islam and Muhammad a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi states the following:​

. . . Muhammadanism is not only the last of the world religions, but a fuller Revelation than any one preceding it. The Qur'án is not only more authoritative than any previous religious gospel, but it contains also much more ordinances, teachings and precepts, which taken together constitute a fuller Revelation of God's purpose and law to mankind than Christianity, Judaism or any other previous Dispensation. This view is in complete accord with the Bahá’í philosophy of progressive revelation, and should be thoroughly accepted and taught by every loyal Christian Bahá’í.[

Thanks. I never read that quote. That is quite a statement.
Can you please cite a link to that statement above so I can see where Shoghi Effendi stated that?

 

[YoursTrue]

@Trailblazer Hi. I guess this is as good a thread as any to go over a few things in question. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start with the definition of the term 'messiah.' OK? Because it's connected with both the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures. (And the Messiah.)
So first let's define what the word 'messiah' means. If comes from the Hebrew root verb 'mashach' which means “smear,” and also “anoint.” Let's see application in the Bible. Exodus 29, uses the term in reference to smearing with oil.
Verses 2-9 describes the anointing of the high priest, Aaron, in the time of Moses.

"Now this is what you are to do to consecrate Aaron and his sons to serve Me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without blemish, 2along with unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil. Make them out of fine wheat flour, 3put them in a basket, and present them in the basket, along with the bull and the two rams.
4Then present Aaron and his sons at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 5Take the garments and clothe Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself, and the breastplate. Fasten the ephod on him with its woven waistband. 6Put the turban on his head and attach the holy diadem to the turban. 7Then take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head.

So we can see that the word anoint is associated with smearing oil. (Mashach in Hebrew associated with the word (English) messiah.)

We'll go further to put it in context with Jesus, ok?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks. Bingo. There you have it:

Have what?

 

[Sumadji]

Have what?

To be Baha'i a person needs to submit to the authority of the Quran

 

[Trailblazer]

We'll go further to put it in context with Jesus, ok?

FYI. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the messiah.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 110-112

But we do not believe that Jesus was the messiah of the latter days, so Jesus was not the messiah that people of all the religions have been waiting for.

Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies for the messiah of the latter days, which is why Jesus has been rejected by the Jews who still await their messiah.

 

[Trailblazer]

To be Baha'i a person needs to submit to the authority of the Quran

Yes, absolutely.

But to be a Baha'i, one also has to hold certain Christian beliefs.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened and the soul of the sinner sanctified…. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
(The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 109-110)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

 

[CG Didymus]

But I have to push the issue: you deny that you give the NT any credit for depicting the real Jesus as a part reason for not having time to read the NT, while continually quoting selected extracts out of context from the NT to back your arguments?

I guess it won't change anything. But I think you might like the real Christ that you find there

A reminder that according to the NT Jesus taught daily in the temple in Jerusalem and was sometimes referred to as Rabbi. He knew the Hebrew scriptures very well.

TB might have a problem with Paul. She quotes a lot from a book on how Paul messed things up.

But why should a Baha'i trust the things Paul said? He was not the "manifestation". Why are his interpretations taken as if they are the "Word" of God?

But then why should a Baha'i take the Gospels as being the true "Word" of God? Like TB's thread about there being no eyewitnesses. Who were these Gospel writers and how can we trust what they tell us about what Jesus said and did?

My feeling is still that no matter which religion, those that believe in it and apply the teachings of that religion, will get enough out of that religion to make it worthwhile to keep believing in it. It will seem as if it is true to them.

But, in a lot of cases, that means that religions that teach contradictory things can't be true. So, how can a Christian that feels the love of God and Jesus in their heart, believe that what a religion like the Baha'i Faith is true?

But Baha'is are doing the same things. They are committed to believing their teachings over what people in the other religions, especially Christianity says.

With Christianity a Baha'i can not only point out problems with the truth and accuracy of the Scriptures, but they can also point out all the beliefs and doctrines that people came up with that are based on their interpretations of those Scriptures.

Like salvation depends on the story of Adam being literally true... that there was a serpent, a garden and a forbidden fruit. And because Adam took a bite, God cured the Earth and sin entered the world. That makes it so all people are born into sin. They can't do anything about that. Without Jesus, they will die as hopelessly lost sinners.

But, the good news, Jesus paid the price for their sins. All they got to do is accept the free gift of salvation and declare that Jesus is Lord. And then most Christian Churches want their people to declare that Jesus is also God. And even though they have Jesus and the Holy Spirit in their heart, Satan, the devil, is still trying to deceive them and get them to doubt.

How can a person that believes those kinds of things ever believe in Baha'u'llah? They are told that it is Jesus, himself, that is coming back. And then Paul says, that if they are still alive when he comes back, they will be taken up into the air to meet Jesus. So, what do some Christians make of that? They say, "yes" we will be "raptured" away into the sky.

Anyway, a Baha'i looks at all that and asks, "Yeah, but what if the stories in the NT aren't literally true?"

The beliefs matter to each religion. But they are so different. And take people to very different places.

 

[Sumadji]

TB might have a problem with Paul. She quotes a lot from a book on how Paul messed things up.

But why should a Baha'i trust the things Paul said? He was not the "manifestation". Why are his interpretations taken as if they are the "Word" of God?

But then why should a Baha'i take the Gospels as being the true "Word" of God? Like TB's thread about there being no eyewitnesses. Who were these Gospel writers and how can we trust what they tell us about what Jesus said and did?

My feeling is still that no matter which religion, those that believe in it and apply the teachings of that religion, will get enough out of that religion to make it worthwhile to keep believing in it. It will seem as if it is true to them.

But, in a lot of cases, that means that religions that teach contradictory things can't be true. So, how can a Christian that feels the love of God and Jesus in their heart, believe that what a religion like the Baha'i Faith is true?

But Baha'is are doing the same things. They are committed to believing their teachings over what people in the other religions, especially Christianity says.

With Christianity a Baha'i can not only point out problems with the truth and accuracy of the Scriptures, but they can also point out all the beliefs and doctrines that people came up with that are based on their interpretations of those Scriptures.

Like salvation depends on the story of Adam being literally true... that there was a serpent, a garden and a forbidden fruit. And because Adam took a bite, God cured the Earth and sin entered the world. That makes it so all people are born into sin. They can't do anything about that. Without Jesus, they will die as hopelessly lost sinners.

But, the good news, Jesus paid the price for their sins. All they got to do is accept the free gift of salvation and declare that Jesus is Lord. And then most Christian Churches want their people to declare that Jesus is also God. And even though they have Jesus and the Holy Spirit in their heart, Satan, the devil, is still trying to deceive them and get them to doubt.

How can a person that believes those kinds of things ever believe in Baha'u'llah? They are told that it is Jesus, himself, that is coming back. And then Paul says, that if they are still alive when he comes back, they will be taken up into the air to meet Jesus. So, what do some Christians make of that? They say, "yes" we will be "raptured" away into the sky.

Anyway, a Baha'i looks at all that and asks, "Yeah, but what if the stories in the NT aren't literally true?"

The beliefs matter to each religion. But they are so different. And take people to very different places.

Thanks. God meets us where we are.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I could give you many, but it would be better if you read the Quran and the New Testament to decide for yourself, than debating extracts out of context? Sorry, but it would be the subject for a new thread?

You can give no Quran passages that indicates Jesus history is a shadowy figure, just another hollow accusation that has been made against every Messenger. An insult to every Muslim that embraces Jesus as well as Muhammad as Messengers from God.

Muhammad confirms Jesus is a Messenger by correcting the incorrect doctrine made by Christians, confirming Jesus is an "Annointed One" of God. Muhammad thus testified of Jesus, exactly as Peter did. He confirmed Jesus was "Christ".

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

You can give no Quran passages that indicates Jesus history is a shadowy figure, just another hollow accusation that has been made against every Messenger. An insult to every Muslim that embraces Jesus as well as Muhammad as Messengers from God.

Muhammad confirms Jesus is a Messenger by correcting the incorrect doctrine made by Christians, confirming Jesus is an "Annointed One" of God. Muhammad thus testified of Jesus, exactly as Peter did. He confirmed Jesus was "Christ".

Regards Tony

I can post a list of every word spoken by Jesus in the Quran, if you like. Don't you come talking about insulting other believers. Enough of you Baha'i. Why don't you READ the scriptures you talk about so much?

 

[YoursTrue]

FYI. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the messiah.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 110-112

But we do not believe that Jesus was the messiah of the latter days, so Jesus was not the messiah that people of all the religions have been waiting for.

Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies for the messiah of the latter days, which is why Jesus has been rejected by the Jews who still await their messiah.

OK, remember we are looking at the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures before Jesus came to the earth in reference to Messiah. Which means 'anointed.' So far we've seen that Aaron was 'anointed' with oil as he became the high priest. Anoint/smear with oil -mashiach (Hebrew) -messiah (English). The the Hebrew scriptures are in conjunction with the Christian scriptures.

In the Hebrew Scriptures the term mashiach is applied to several men. David was officially appointed to be king by being anointed with oil and is spoken of as “anointed one” or, literally, “messiah” from the Hebrew.
2 Samuel 19:21 and several other scriptures helps us to understand this. Messiah = anointed one.
Psalm 18:50 - He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing love to his anointed, to David and to his descendants forever.
So, to sum up, mashiach (or messiah) means "anointed one." David was anointed. So was Aaron the high priest, as we learned from the Bible.
Take care.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since Baha'u'llah received His knowledge from God, he did not have to read the Old or New Testaments. I don't know where Abdu'l-Baha got his knowledge of the Bible. He may have read it but he also got a lot of knowledge from his father

Abdu'l-Baha received all his knowledge from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha was a perfect mirror of the mirror, a gift to humanity and example of our potential. Abdul'baha was showing us how we could reach the potential of being created in God's Image.

So his knowledge was also drawn from the Holy Spirit, through Baha'u'llah. Abdul'baha lived in the Kingdom, he was the first to recognize Baha'u'llah while still a small child and served Baha'u'llah every moment of his life with very little sleep, day after day, year after year, decade after decade.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can post a list of every word spoken by Jesus in the Quran, if you like. Don't you come talking about insulting other believers. Enough of you Baha'i. Why don't you READ the scriptures you talk about so much?

Post them all, I have read them all numerous times, it is Your frame of reference that is the issue.

It is YOU insulting God. Muhammad and Jesus are both Messengers Annointed of God. I decided to call you and all Christians out on their blind deception of Muhammad.

Suck it up, you get a chance to be well informed about the Message of Muhammad or remain in ignorance. The whole world has this chance. Ignorance breeds predudices.

Look at what religious ignorance and prejudices are currently producing. Instead of love thy neighbours, it is hate the others that's also say they beleive in God, hate them because their name is not our name in faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

By the time Mohammad heard about Christianity there were a lot of problematic situations in that realm and only God knows what he heard...

He heard the Message from God that he was to give to Humanity, the same as Jesus did.

God only knows the ignorance of men.

Regards Tony