What tools or mediums does God use to create the universe?

[osgart]

I know fundamentalists say it is merely spoken into existence. How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

Simply declaring God created the universe invites all kinds of questions as to the definition of God, and then once defined, how does that actually happen?

It sounds to me like God's creation is an appeal to the mysterious and unfathomable. It's very reasonable to question how it's actually done though. I can't imagine a believer forbidding such questioning as if it were unacceptable to do so.

I know in my religion consciousness exists in a medium that is abstract and has no known physics. This underlying medium is not consciousness but has qualitative aspects both living and non living. It's a non physical, non living environment that gives conceptions and ideas a life of their own; from which consciousness is spawned. To me the fact that humans must invent meanings, and purposes to live sheds light on the idea that meaning and purpose is essential, and fundamental to reality.

The medium I believe in is non spatial, and non local. It creates space, time, location, energy, matter, and form. Life merely inhabits this intellectual, and spiritual medium. It is spiritual in the sense that values and virtues, such as love, honesty etc. are expressed in this medium.

Even with all my beliefs I don't see a living authority such as a God could ever spawn such a reality as the one in which we all live. Perhaps God is a hunter. Perhaps finite theism is true. Im not convinced of any of it though.

 

[shunyadragon]

God Created Natural Laws and processes. as the medium for the existence of our physical existence.

Natural Laws and natural processes are attributes of God like the shadow of the eternal light of God and have eternally existed.

 

[Audie]

I know fundamentalists say it is merely spoken into existence. How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

Simply declaring God created the universe invites all kinds of questions as to the definition of God, and then once defined, how does that actually happen?

It sounds to me like God's creation is an appeal to the mysterious and unfathomable. It's very reasonable to question how it's actually done though. I can't imagine a believer forbidding such questioning as if it were unacceptable to do so.

I know in my religion consciousness exists in a medium that is abstract and has no known physics. This underlying medium is not consciousness but has qualitative aspects both living and non living. It's a non physical, non living environment that gives conceptions and ideas a life of their own; from which consciousness is spawned. To me the fact that humans must invent meanings, and purposes to live sheds light on the idea that meaning and purpose is essential, and fundamental to reality.

The medium I believe in is non spatial, and non local. It creates space, time, location, energy, matter, and form. Life merely inhabits this intellectual, and spiritual medium. It is spiritual in the sense that values and virtues, such as love, honesty etc. are expressed in this medium.

Even with all my beliefs I don't see a living authority such as a God could ever spawn such a reality as the one in which we all live. Perhaps God is a hunter. Perhaps finite theism is true. Im not convinced of any of it though.

Didn't need no stinking tools.
He assumed it into being.
I assume he had some reason.

 

[osgart]

God Created Natural Laws and processes. as the medium for the existence of our physical existence.

Natural Laws and natural processes are attributes of God like the shadow of the eternal light of God and have eternally existed.

My question is more specifically, how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?

 

[syo]

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

brahman.

 

[dybmh]

How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

It is a consequence of God being in command, literally, of all the forces of nature. Command = divine fiat.

It gets deep, way-deep after that. I wrote something in another thread this morning, which may be helpful to describe it. But it's something like 3 pages long.

 

[dybmh]

My question is more specifically, how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?

It starts with a reality where there God is absolutely literally infinite, and there is nothing else. It's an "only-God" reality prior to creation.

If you're good with that concept, I can continue.

 

[osgart]

It starts with a reality where there God is absolutely literally infinite, and there is nothing else. It's an "only-God" reality prior to creation.

If you're good with that concept, I can continue.

Yeah I'm fine with that. If you think that it's a worthy topic, by all means continue.

 

[dybmh]

Yeah I'm fine with that. If you think that it's a worthy topic, by all means continue.

It's worthy, because, in order to discuss how God is creating, then, God needs a defintion.

If God is literally absolutley infinite, annd there is only God prior to creation, there are no tools or mediums in order to create. Whatever happens would need to be developed by God itself.

The model that is used to describe this process is "divine speech". The manner in which God is creating is similar to a story-teller. And this makes sense if one considers a primitive story-teller, human, in the distant past, conveying the story to others. They would idealize romanticize this intellectual process of story telling, and how, ...

~waxing-romatically~

the whole world was created like an author is telling a story

~end-waxing-romantically~.

Make sense? Should I continue?

 

[osgart]

It's worthy, because, in order to discuss how God is creating, then, God needs a defintion.

If God is literally absolutley infinite, annd there is only God prior to creation, there are no tools or mediums in order to create. Whatever happens would need to be developed by God itself.

The model that is used to describe this process is "divine speech". The manner in which God is creating is similar to a story-teller. And this makes sense if one considers a primitive story-teller, human, in the distant past, conveying the story to others. They would idealize romanticize this intellectual process of story telling, and how, ...

~waxing-romatically~

the whole world was created like an author is telling a story

~end-waxing-romantically~.

Make sense? Should I continue?

I understand it. However I have to admit it sounds far removed from how I experience everyday reality.

Yes, sure, continue on.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My question is more specifically, how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?

If there is a God we may not ever know. We clearly do not know now which makes this thread rather purposeless. Well it may tell you who has a dogmatic belief that they cannot justify so I have to take that back.

There may or may not be a God. If one exists we have currently no idea how he did it and there does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel (oh, three steps left and then right! Now I have it)

 

[Jimmy]

Man

 

[dybmh]

I understand it. However I have to admit it sounds far removed from how I experience everyday reality.

Yes, sure, continue on.

Well, before I move on too far, what do you mean?

I thought that you were asking:

"how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?"

Did I miss something about making sure it matched your everyday reality? I can connect it a bit at the end, but, it would be good to know yourr expectations so I can decide how far to explain this. Like I said in my first reply, this gets "way-deep". Maybe you didn't see it, because I replied twice to the thread in close proximity.

Way-deep means it's an intellectual model that is highly theoretical and complex. If God is absolutley literally infinite, then, there's only so much that can be said about it. And, it's going to be different, VERY different, than everything else in reality. Nothing else is even close to being absolutley literally infinite. How much more so in "everyday reality"?

Do you see what I mean? If the metric is "Does this match how everyday reality is experienced?" I need to know that.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Crescent wrench?

 

[osgart]

Well, before I move on too far, what do you mean?

I thought that you were asking:

"how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?"

Did I miss something about making sure it matched your everyday reality? I can connect it a bit at the end, but, it would be good to know yourr expectations so I can decide how far to explain this. Like I said in my first reply, this gets "way-deep". Maybe you didn't see it, because I replied twice to the thread in close proximity.

Way-deep means it's an intellectual model that is highly theoretical and complex. If God is absolutley literally infinite, then, there's only so much that can be said about it. And, it's going to be different, VERY different, than everything else in reality. Nothing else is even close to being absolutley literally infinite. How much more so in "everyday reality"?

Do you see what I mean? If the metric is "Does this match how everyday reality is experienced?" I need to know that.

It doesn't match my everyday reality in my eyes, no.

It is however your answer, and I'm fine with the continuing on part.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Crescent wrench?

Lord no! Those things just strip the head of the bolt or the nut eventually. Why in such a universe you would never know who could get . . let me think, ooh! You could never predict who might be elected Presi . . .. Oh. you may be right.

 

[Bird123]

I know fundamentalists say it is merely spoken into existence. How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

Simply declaring God created the universe invites all kinds of questions as to the definition of God, and then once defined, how does that actually happen?

It sounds to me like God's creation is an appeal to the mysterious and unfathomable. It's very reasonable to question how it's actually done though. I can't imagine a believer forbidding such questioning as if it were unacceptable to do so.

I know in my religion consciousness exists in a medium that is abstract and has no known physics. This underlying medium is not consciousness but has qualitative aspects both living and non living. It's a non physical, non living environment that gives conceptions and ideas a life of their own; from which consciousness is spawned. To me the fact that humans must invent meanings, and purposes to live sheds light on the idea that meaning and purpose is essential, and fundamental to reality.

The medium I believe in is non spatial, and non local. It creates space, time, location, energy, matter, and form. Life merely inhabits this intellectual, and spiritual medium. It is spiritual in the sense that values and virtues, such as love, honesty etc. are expressed in this medium.

Even with all my beliefs I don't see a living authority such as a God could ever spawn such a reality as the one in which we all live. Perhaps God is a hunter. Perhaps finite theism is true. Im not convinced of any of it though.

God is not a hunter. God is a Teacher. God created the universe to unfold in such a way that mankind would be able to figure it all out in time. It's a bit like a seed can grow into a Giant tree.

God doesn't just give knowledge out. Wisdom is acquired along the journey to gain knowledge. Look around you. God hides nothing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[shunyadragon]

My question is more specifically, how did God instantiate those laws into existence. Is reality law dependent? Do these laws exist on their own?

How? What? Why? Not answerable questions. God need not instantiate those laws into existence they are eternal attributes of God. Yes, the reality is Law dependent.

 

[osgart]

If there is a God we may not ever know. We clearly do not know now which makes this thread rather purposeless. Well it may tell you who has a dogmatic belief that they cannot justify so I have to take that back.

There may or may not be a God. If one exists we have currently no idea how he did it and there does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel (oh, three steps left and then right! Now I have it)

A lot of intelligent people hold to God's creation. I want to know the thinking behind it.

It may never have occured to you that not everyone's reasons and rationales are grounded in physics. Some people start with conscious experience as the primary reality. Take honesty, or love, and qualities of character; they are regarded as primary evidence of something deeper than physics. Who is anyone that they should deny those people their perspective?

Convincement is not refutation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A lot of intelligent people hold to God's creation. I want to know the thinking behind it.

It may never have occured to you that not everyone's reasons and rationales are grounded in physics. Some people start with conscious experience as the primary reality. Take honesty, or love, and qualities of character; they are regarded as primary evidence of something deeper than physics. Who is anyone that they should deny those people their perspective?

Convincement is not refutation.

You are quite correct that convincement is not refutation. But what looks like arguments from ignorance is not evidence. I cannot say why some intelligent people believe in a God. For many it may be just the residual effects of childhood indoctrination. It may be wishful thinking. There could be all sorts of reasons and some of them may be valid. Some of them may not be.