What tools or mediums does God use to create the universe?

[shunyadragon]

It starts with a reality where there God is absolutely literally infinite, and there is nothing else. It's an "only-God" reality prior to creation.

If you're good with that concept, I can continue.

I propose that Creation represents the attributes of God and is eternal with God.

 

[shunyadragon]

I know fundamentalists say it is merely spoken into existence. How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

Genesis can be interpreted as there being 'spoken into existence.'

Example: Did any early church fathers view the Creation account in Genesis as being allegorical?
According to this article:

Clement of Alexandria states that "That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: 'This is the book of the generation, also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth' [Gen. 2:4]. For the expression 'when they were created' intimates an indefinite and dateless production" (Miscellanies 6:16 [A.D. 208]). While this might seem like a claim for long ages, other sources indicate that Clement held to instantaneous Creation such that "indefinite and dateless" properly refers to an immeasurably short interval.

Actually, my view of an eternal Creation as the reflection of God's attributes fits this view loosely, but not in any moment in time.

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

I consider 'tools, mediums or methods?' simply too anthropomorphic, and a little like engineering as in Intelligent Design. God is not an engineer and does not need 'methods.' IF God exists the ultimate nature of God is unknown, and from the human perspective, the attributes of our physical existence are attributes of God. The only concept of God that could be real from the human perspective is a Universal 'Source' some call God(s) whose nature is beyond all the diverse and conflicting beliefs and undefinable. I believe it is logical that if a Creator God exists God is not the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or Islamic God. The closest is the Tao where "if someone claims to know the Tao they do not know," or the unknowable undefinable God of the Baha'i Faith

 

[dybmh]

It doesn't match my everyday reality in my eyes, no.

I am asking if that is your metric? If you are wanting an explaination of God's acts of creation to match your everyday reality, please say so?

It is however your answer, and I'm fine with the continuing on part.

I don't see any reason to proceed if the goal post is shifting undeclared.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Didn't need no stinking tools.
He assumed it into being.
I assume he had some reason.

too many assumptions. When you assume, you make an *** out of U and me.

 

[osgart]

I consider 'methods?' simply too anthropomorphic, and a little like engineering as in Intelligent Design. IF God exists the ultimate nature of God is unknown, and none of this thread applies from the human perspective. The only concept of God that could be real from the human perspective is a Universal 'Source' some call God(s) whose nature is beyond all the diverse and conflicting beliefs and undefinable. I believe it is logical that if a Creator God exists God is not the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or Islamic God. The closest is the Tao where "if someone claims to know the Tao they do not know."

Anthropomorphism also reflects what nature does so why wouldn't God have any human characteristics?

I'm convinced none of those religions that you mentioned are at all true to reality. No argument there.

I believe that a Universal Source exists. I don't call that God. Clearly the Source has undefinable characteristics. To conceive of life on Earth though the Source would have relatable qualities and characteristics such as mind, heart, and will.

The Source reality to me is likely infinite in nature. A finite source of life, and universe is incoherent. The Source of life may indeed be many sources, one reality.

I would say that you are convinced that we all exist in an uncreated reality that reflects the attributes of God. I'm convinced there is more to life than its physical appearance.

I believe what I believe for my own reasons. For me they are justified. For others, no one is the same, we are all unique in reasoning.

 

[osgart]

I am asking if that is your metric? If you are wanting an explaination of God's acts of creation to match your everyday reality, please say so?



I don't see any reason to proceed if the goal post is shifting undeclared.

I'm open to the possibility. Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality, yes.

 

[osgart]

I'm open to the possibility. Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality, yes.

There's a lot of frequent posters on here. I probably cannot respond to all. Nor can I afford to devote a lot of time to RF. Over long periods of time I do read and respond to anything that interests me or comes my way personally. My threads are out of curiosity, and hope that some many others find it constructive. So it's not just about me when I start threads. Feel free to explore my topic with others.

 

[shunyadragon]

Anthropomorphism also reflects what nature does so why wouldn't God have any human characteristics?

Humans like all of our physical existence would have attributes of God. I would consider our human existence to be a local evolving Creation of a Creation so vast that we are a spec on the nature of existence. Individual ancient religions reflect a varied conflicting view of God from each cultural perspective.

I'm convinced none of those religions that you mentioned are at all true to reality. No argument there.

I believe that a Universal Source exists. I don't call that God. Clearly the Source has undefinable characteristics. To conceive of life on Earth though the Source would have relatable qualities and characteristics such as mind, heart, and will.

I will propose that such attributes as mind, heart, and will are attributes of humans and other life forms in our physical existence that reflect the attributes of God, and not specifically attributes of God.

The Source reality to me is likely infinite in nature. A finite source of life, and universe is incoherent. The Source of life may indeed be many sources, one reality.

I would prefer eternal. Potential infinities describe possible attributes of the infinite extent of our physical existence and are sort of temporal and spatial.

I would say that you are convinced that we all exist in an uncreated reality that reflects the attributes of God. I'm convinced there is more to life than its physical appearance.

This somewhat confuses my view with assumptions I would not make.

I believe what I believe for my own reasons. For me they are justified. For others, no one is the same, we are all unique in reasoning.

The obvious does not add to the discussion.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm open to the possibility. Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality, yes.

Most likely the egocentric view that "Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality," would not be a valid perspective from the fallible human perspective.

Clarify?

 

[dybmh]

I'm open to the possibility. Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality, yes.

Can you give me a hint, an example of what you consider "match your everyday reality"?

And there is no way I am going to prove to you or demonstrate the mechanics of God creating. Hopefully you already know that? I'm thinking you're asking a question about explaining an idea, a concept. I'm not going to be showing you "God's magic pinky-finger waggling electrons into motion."

OK?

 

[osgart]

Most like the egocentric view that "Creation must account for everyday reality. God's act of creation must eventually match my everyday reality," would not be a valid perspective.

Clarify?

From creation we must arrive at everyday experiential reality. Why consider a creation theory that does not account for everyday experiential reality?

 

[Valjean]

Tools? I'm thinking a transdimentional etch-a-sketch.

 

[osgart]

Can you give me a hint, an example of what you consider "match your everyday reality"?

And there is no way I am going to prove to you or demonstrate the mechanics of God creating. Hopefully you already know that? I'm thinking you're asking a question about explaining an idea, a concept. I'm not going to be showing you "God's magic pinky-finger waggling electrons into motion."

OK?

Just the idea/concept is all I'm asking for.

I'm thinking the concept will be explanatory of how life and universe arrived in actuality.

 

[shunyadragon]

From creation we must arrive at everyday experiential reality. Why consider a creation theory that does not account for everyday experiential reality?

. . because this is a fallible human perspective. I do not believe God's Creation needs to account for anything on our level. I would avoid terminology such as 'creation theory' in describing our subjective beliefs of a Creator God.

I will add that my evolved perspective of the possible nature of our subjective spiritual existence and the perspective of 'IF' God exists has resulted in the Universalism (not UU) Philosophy that accepts things as they are, and questions all beliefs including my own. The conclusion is that science is a reliable evolving body of knowledge of our physical existence that changes when new information. Thousands of years of ancient religions doe represent the evolving spiritual reality of humanity, but by and large it is inconsistent, unreliable, and resistant to change.

 

[osgart]

. . because this is a fallible human perspective. I do not believe God's Creation needs to account for anything on our level. I would avoid terminology such as 'creation theory' in describing our subjective beliefs of a Creator God.

It appears that @dybmh has a creation theory. I could be wrong.

I'm not a creationist. However if there is no explanation of things on our level from Creation then Creation is pure unfounded speculation and there is no reason to believe it.

 

[shunyadragon]

It appears that @dybmh has a creation theory. I could be wrong.

I'm not a creationist. However if there is no explanation of things on our level from Creation then Creation is pure unfounded speculation and there is no reason to believe it.

I agree that the inconsistencies and contradictions among fallible humans over the millennia of God and what is Creation makes any one severely problematic.

My view as described in the previous posts describes an unknowable undefinable 'Source' some call God(s) as the eternal Creator where the attributes of our evolving dynamic physical existence including humanity reflect the attributes of God

 

[osgart]

I agree that the inconsistencies and contradictions among fallible humans over the millennia of God and what is Creation makes any one severely problematic.

My view as described in the previous posts describes an unknowable undefinable 'Source' some call God(s) as the eternal Creator where the attributes of our evolving dynamic physical existence including humanity reflect the attributes of God

Why do you think this 'Source' exists? If I may ask.

 

[dybmh]

It appears that @dybmh has a creation theory. I could be wrong.

I'm not a creationist. However if there is no explanation of things on our level from Creation then Creation is pure unfounded speculation and there is no reason to believe it.

It's not my theory. And calling it creationist probably carries too much baggage. Creationism is literal what I am describing is the opposite of literal. That's the whole point.

Also you should know that I've somewhat recently started putting individuals on ignore who have demonstrated a level of ignorance and arrogance about Judaism that prohibits any rational discussion. They are essentially banned from my online experience here. And that's for the best. It is, of course, your choice whom you consider credible. However, if you see that I am not replying to someone, that means that I have had numerous experiences with that individual where their extreme ignorance of the subject matter was equal in magnitude to the extreme arrogance that prohibited them from listening, learning, and adapting their conclusions as a result of accurate information that is presented to them.

Just the idea/concept is all I'm asking for.

I'm thinking the concept will be explanatory of how life and universe arrived in actuality.

What I can offer is the reason that the metaphor of "divine-speech" is used to describe the initial creation events, and the way to understand the metaphor as it exists in Jewish theology. Basically, I can help elaborate on what is written, so that when it is read, a person can better understand it other than a cartoonish "man-in-the-clouds". It's much deeper than that.

 

[tuti9064]

I know fundamentalists say it is merely spoken into existence. How can anyone arrive at this conclusion?

If you believe in God then surely God would necessarily have methods of creating the universe?

Simply declaring God created the universe invites all kinds of questions as to the definition of God, and then once defined, how does that actually happen?

It sounds to me like God's creation is an appeal to the mysterious and unfathomable. It's very reasonable to question how it's actually done though. I can't imagine a believer forbidding such questioning as if it were unacceptable to do so.

I know in my religion consciousness exists in a medium that is abstract and has no known physics. This underlying medium is not consciousness but has qualitative aspects both living and non living. It's a non physical, non living environment that gives conceptions and ideas a life of their own; from which consciousness is spawned. To me the fact that humans must invent meanings, and purposes to live sheds light on the idea that meaning and purpose is essential, and fundamental to reality.

The medium I believe in is non spatial, and non local. It creates space, time, location, energy, matter, and form. Life merely inhabits this intellectual, and spiritual medium. It is spiritual in the sense that values and virtues, such as love, honesty etc. are expressed in this medium.

Even with all my beliefs I don't see a living authority such as a God could ever spawn such a reality as the one in which we all live. Perhaps God is a hunter. Perhaps finite theism is true. Im not convinced of any of it though.

I don't think we can actually understand how God created the world, but I think we can draw parallels. For example: it might be done similarly to code. Some theologians like Mulla Sadra(qs) and al-Faydh al-Kashani (qs) compare God to light, as in he eminates creation like how light eminates.

Definitely, but the holy Qur'an says in 36:82
إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُ إِذَا أَرَادَ شَيْئًا أَن يَقُولَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ
All it takes, when He wills something ˹to be˺, is simply to say to it: “Be!” And it is!

What's your religion?

You should read the book of Monotheism by Shaykh Saduq(qs) as I think it will help you a lot in these matters

 

[tuti9064]

God created the universe to unfold in such a way that mankind would be able to figure it all out in time

Well said! This fits what we see in the narrations of the holy progeny,

إن الله عز وجل خلق العقل وهو أول خلق من الروحانيين (1) عن يمين العرش من نوره فقال له: أدبر فأدبر، ثم قال له: أقبل فأقبل، فقال الله تبارك وتعالى: خلقتك خلقا عظيما وكرمتك على جميع خلقي

الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة

٢١ يطلق الروحاني على الأجسام اللطيفة وعلى الجواهر المجردة ان قيل بها. (آت) (2) المذكور فيما يلي ثمانية وسبعون جندا ولكنه قد تكرر ذكر بعض الجنود فافهم.

God Almighty created the intellect, which was the first creation among the spiritual beings (1), to the right of the throne from His light. He said to it, "Turn away," and it turned away. Then He said to it, "Come forward," and it came forward. Then Allah, Blessed and Exalted, said, "I have created you with a great creation and honored you above all my creation."

Al-Kafi - Sheikh Al-Kulayni - Vol. 1 - Page 21

The term "spiritual" refers to subtle bodies and abstract jewels that are mentioned.
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God hides nothing.

Indeed! It doesn't befit him to hide anything. It fits a kindergartener better than God.