What Trinitarian churches teach about the Trinity

[Brian2]

Look, you have only two possible arguments that you can make.

The first is that you can say John botched it. He kept saying "the Jews" when in fact he was NOT referring to the People of Israel, but only to a small group of religious leaders. IOW that he misused the term. It looks like you are opting for this, although you seem to be under the misunderstanding that this is somehow okay to do.

OR, you can say that John is antisemitic, dishing out a constant stream of accusations against us Jews.

You pick.

The use of the term "the Jews" is clearly a reference in John's gospel to the Jewish leaders who were hostile to Jesus.
Those Christians who want to be antisemitic and others who want to see John as antisemitic would be blind to this fact.
What you call "a constant stream of accusations against us Jews" is plainly not what is happening in the gospel. The accusations are against the Jewish leaders of the day and it is just stories of what happened between Jesus and these Jews. They were out to find a way to accuse Jesus and to get rid of Jesus and they eventually succeeded. There are a number of stories of them trying to stone Jesus for something they disliked.
They showed themselves to have the same spirit as the Islamic leaders who want strict sharia law and killing those who disagree and controlling things with a heavy, hypocritical and murdering hand.
But you probably see the gospel stories about those Jews as lies.

 

[Muffled]

What exactly do you find wrong with the claim:

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

Please show your reasoning.

I believe for one thing Jesus is both God and man and the Father is just God. There is a distinction.

 

[Soapy]

I believe for one thing Jesus is both God and man and the Father is just God. There is a distinction.

It seems you are not answering the question set to you. I already know that you think that Jesus is both God and man but the Father is just God.

But the question was not about what you think Jesus is or what you think the Father is. The question was:

————————————————
What exactly do you find wrong with the claim:

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

I then requested your reasoning as to your answer.

It’s a reasonable and simple question therefore if you are unwilling to put forward a credible answer in keeping with the question then it must be assumed quite rightly that any credible answer would incriminate your belief so you are taking the fifth!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The use of the term "the Jews" is clearly a reference in John's gospel to the Jewish leaders who were hostile to Jesus.

All I can do is refer you back to what I already said. If this quote above is correct, then John BOTCHED it by using the term "the Jews" incorrectly. Is that what you wish to say?

 

[YoursTrue]

Look, you have only two possible arguments that you can make.

The first is that you can say John botched it. He kept saying "the Jews" when in fact he was NOT referring to the People of Israel, but only to a small group of religious leaders. IOW that he misused the term. It looks like you are opting for this, although you seem to be under the misunderstanding that this is somehow okay to do.

OR, you can say that John is antisemitic, dishing out a constant stream of accusations against us Jews.

You pick.

The Jews, inside and outside of the political state of Israel, are divided, and many, as you know, do not believe in what the Bible says except as myths. If that much. Some are atheists, or believe in "essence" of whatever, maybe. This is not to say anything bad, just facts, similar to many of other religions, including Christendom, Islam, etc. Various beliefs and sectors.

 

[Brian2]

All I can do is refer you back to what I already said. If this quote above is correct, then John BOTCHED it by using the term "the Jews" incorrectly. Is that what you wish to say?

All I can do is refer you back to what I already said.

 

[Oeste]

When ANYONE refers to "the Jews," they are making a remark about Jews in general, the People of Israel.

Incorrect.

It would depend on the author's context, specifically to how the term "the Jews" is being used. The term can be used to refer to a specific or general group of Jews.

It is grossly incorrect to think one can refer only to a limited set of religious leaders, yet use the term "the Jews."

If the limited set of religious leaders are Jewish, then why not?

Again, it depends on context.

It just doesn't work. It would be like me making the remark "The Americans accept evolution," when in fact only a subset do.

Of course it works.

I am at a conference on evolution. The Finns have sent a contingent that argues for evolution. The Brits have sent a contingent that can't make up their mind one way or the other. But the American have sent a contingent that argues against evolution.

I'm pretty sure if I say "The Americans deny evolution!" you would understand quite perfectly that I am referring to the specific American contingent sent to the conference, and not all Americans as a whole.

The same holds true in the book of John.

You've stretched your argument beyond all recognition in order to impugn John as "antisemitic". Quite simply, his reference to "the Jews" was specific to certain Jews at the time, and non-specific at others. It all depends on context.

I am reading a book. It states "...the Jews...were then loaded on a train." Is the book referring to loading the entire people of Israel???
Of course not! That just doesn't work.

I realize that it is a common assumption, including among some scholars, that the gospel of John was written by a Jew. I would disagree with that. I think it is far more likely to have been written by a Gentile, or at best a Hellenized Jew living out in the diaspora. My reasoning is as follows: of all the four gospels, John is the most antisemitic and anti-Judaism. It's always "The Jews this," and "the Jews that" and the this and that is never complimentary.

My goodness! If you think John was somehow antisemitic and anti-Judaism in the gospel of John, you should read Ezekiel 7! By your reckoning, no Jew would ever write such a thing!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Incorrect.

Maybe if you say it 100x it will come true.

 

[Brian2]

Maybe if you say it 100x it will come true.

Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect.

What a waste of time that was. It can't be any more true than true.

 

[Muffled]

It seems you are not answering the question set to you. I already know that you think that Jesus is both God and man but the Father is just God.

But the question was not about what you think Jesus is or what you think the Father is. The question was:

————————————————
What exactly do you find wrong with the claim:

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

I then requested your reasoning as to your answer.

It’s a reasonable and simple question therefore if you are unwilling to put forward a credible answer in keeping with the question then it must be assumed quite rightly that any credible answer would incriminate your belief so you are taking the fifth!!

I believe you are trying to amuse me. I thought my answer was good enough but evidently you are looking for something different. 2. is incorrect Jesus is not God ; He is God in the flesh.

 

[Soapy]

I believe you are trying to amuse me. I thought my answer was good enough but evidently you are looking for something different. 2. is incorrect Jesus is not God ; He is God in the flesh.

If you had an answer then you would put it forth without blinking.

I don’t see you answering the question but rather, prevaricating.

If I asked you what is 2 times two in mathematics you would just answer: Two times two is four.

It’s that kind of response I’m looking for from you. Anything else doesn’t cut it.

Let’s say you had an exam paper with my question on it. What do you think the examiner would say to your prevaricated response:
‘You may have written a response but that response does not directly correspond to the question asked. Therefore I am awarding you ’Nil Points’.

The reason you cannot answer adequately is because you know that Jesus IS NOT GOD and God is not Jesus. It may be that you have been taught that Jesus is ALMIGHTY GOD: YAHWEH, The Father, but that doesn’t make - and the proof that you know it to be false is that you cannot respond.

This is certainly like the case that the trinity church even killed people who did not believe that the planet Earth was the centre of the universe. Yes, the congregation was taught to believe this fallacy EVEN AFTER full publication was made from Cupernicus, and later, Galileo.

When Astrologers noticed that certain planets or stars didn’t behave as they would if the Earth was the centre, the church demanded certain renowned astrologers to devise a work around. These ‘alterations to the astrological system’ were good enough to fool the vast majority of people… but, anyone who noticed the discrepances,were threatened with punishment of death.

This is what the trinity says: ‘Anyone who does not believe the tenet of trinitarianism will be cast into eternal hell’, says the Athanasian creed.

So…,How can Jesus be ‘GOD’ if ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit’?

 

[Muffled]

If you had an answer then you would put it forth without blinking.

I don’t see you answering the question but rather, prevaricating.

If I asked you what is 2 times two in mathematics you would just answer: Two times two is four.

It’s that kind of response I’m looking for from you. Anything else doesn’t cut it.

Let’s say you had an exam paper with my question on it. What do you think the examiner would say to your prevaricated response:
‘You may have written a response but that response does not directly correspond to the question asked. Therefore I am awarding you ’Nil Points’.

The reason you cannot answer adequately is because you know that Jesus IS NOT GOD and God is not Jesus. It may be that you have been taught that Jesus is ALMIGHTY GOD: YAHWEH, The Father, but that doesn’t make - and the proof that you know it to be false is that you cannot respond.

This is certainly like the case that the trinity church even killed people who did not believe that the planet Earth was the centre of the universe. Yes, the congregation was taught to believe this fallacy EVEN AFTER full publication was made from Cupernicus, and later, Galileo.

When Astrologers noticed that certain planets or stars didn’t behave as they would if the Earth was the centre, the church demanded certain renowned astrologers to devise a work around. These ‘alterations to the astrological system’ were good enough to fool the vast majority of people… but, anyone who noticed the discrepances,were threatened with punishment of death.

This is what the trinity says: ‘Anyone who does not believe the tenet of trinitarianism will be cast into eternal hell’, says the Athanasian creed.

So…,How can Jesus be ‘GOD’ if ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit’?

I believe thinking the mystery of God is as simple as two plus two to be simplistic thinking.

 

[Brian2]

So…,How can Jesus be ‘GOD’ if ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit’?

The Father is the only true God.
Intrinsically in the Father from eternity has been His Son and His Holy Spirit.
IOW none have been created and all are of the same uncreated substance/essence.
Both corporately and individually, it is all YHWH.

The Arians had a problem with Jesus being of the same substance/essence as the Father.

 

[learner Daniel]

I’ve decided that it’s time for some lessons about the Trinity. It isn’t as simple as I thought it was. What I mean by “Trinitarian churches” is churches that say they believe in The Trinity, more or less what people call “mainstream churches.” I’ll start with Methodist churches as an example.


- God (www.umc.org)

One key word here is “distinct.”

---

(later)

More examples. The bolding in all of these is mine.

Another example, from the Catholic Answers Encyclopedia


Southern Baptist:


Evangelical Lutheran:


Presbyterian:


Episcopal:


They all say that God is three distinct persons. Some examples of how they explain that are in post #18.

The Trinity is in the Bible outlined here: https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

The definition I work with is One God or godhead containing three personalities. God choose to review himself this way so, we have a chance to relate to him.

Jewish Thinking is pictures. In marriage, there is first a coming together to discuss terms which results in engagement. The Son and Lady return to their parents homes. The Son is busy building a home for them to live. The Lady is busy learning skills, and the ways of marriage from older women. Jesus does not know when the wedding will be because it is the Father who determines when it will happen.
Some night after tasks are completed, the Father wakes up the Son(Jesus Christ) to start the parade to the Temple. The Bride in this case is the Church. The wedding is the Second Coming of Jesus. The Father will tell his Son, now is the time for the wedding. Others join the march to the Temple to celebrate the marriage. At the temple, vows and commitments are exchanged.

 

[learner Daniel]

Can you say what you think of this:

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. The Father is God
3. The Father is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
2. The Holy Spirit is God
3. The Holy Spirit is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

Brother, check out the outline I posted.
All three are One God, part of the godhead.
Persons: They are separate persons based on roles.

 

[learner Daniel]

If you had an answer then you would put it forth without blinking.

I don’t see you answering the question but rather, prevaricating.

If I asked you what is 2 times two in mathematics you would just answer: Two times two is four.

It’s that kind of response I’m looking for from you. Anything else doesn’t cut it.

Let’s say you had an exam paper with my question on it. What do you think the examiner would say to your prevaricated response:
‘You may have written a response but that response does not directly correspond to the question asked. Therefore I am awarding you ’Nil Points’.

The reason you cannot answer adequately is because you know that Jesus IS NOT GOD and God is not Jesus. It may be that you have been taught that Jesus is ALMIGHTY GOD: YAHWEH, The Father, but that doesn’t make - and the proof that you know it to be false is that you cannot respond.

This is certainly like the case that the trinity church even killed people who did not believe that the planet Earth was the centre of the universe. Yes, the congregation was taught to believe this fallacy EVEN AFTER full publication was made from Cupernicus, and later, Galileo.

When Astrologers noticed that certain planets or stars didn’t behave as they would if the Earth was the centre, the church demanded certain renowned astrologers to devise a work around. These ‘alterations to the astrological system’ were good enough to fool the vast majority of people… but, anyone who noticed the discrepances,were threatened with punishment of death.

This is what the trinity says: ‘Anyone who does not believe the tenet of trinitarianism will be cast into eternal hell’, says the Athanasian creed.

So…,How can Jesus be ‘GOD’ if ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit’?

One to the third power is one. 1x1x1=1

 

[learner Daniel]

A confusion may be Sabellianism is the belief that instead of being three persons, these are actually three ''modes'' or masks of the same God. Sabellianism is a type of Modalism, which is a group of heresies that all refer to different aspects of God instead of different persons.

 

[amazing grace]

Brother, check out the outline I posted.
All three are One God, part of the godhead.
Persons: They are separate persons based on roles.

So, Jesus wasn't a real human person just God playing a role?

A confusion may be Sabellianism is the belief that instead of being three persons, these are actually three ''modes'' or masks of the same God. Sabellianism is a type of Modalism, which is a group of heresies that all refer to different aspects of God instead of different persons.

Isn't that what you describe in your quote above? Wouldn't the portrayal of Jesus just be God wearing a mask - one "mask" as the Father when playing the role of the Father and one "mask" as the Son when playing the role of the Son?

 

[learner Daniel]

Trinity fully persons. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Sabellianism is a false teaching of God being an actor in a play changing masks.

So, Jesus wasn't a real human person just God playing a role?

Isn't that what you describe in your quote above? Wouldn't the portrayal of Jesus just be God wearing a mask - one "mask" as the Father when playing the role of the Father and one "mask" as the Son when playing the role of the Son

 

[amazing grace]

Trinity fully persons. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Sabellianism is a false teaching of God being an actor in a play changing masks.

Isn't that what you are saying here:

Brother, check out the outline I posted.
All three are One God, part of the godhead.
Persons: They are separate persons based on roles.

To play a role - isn't one like an actor in a play changing masks? role: n. an actor's part in a play, movie, etc.: the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation: "she greeted us all in her various roles of mother, friend, and daughter" · "religion plays a vital role in society"

In regard to the example above - If a person is a man, a father and a son is that what you consider "one person as 3 separate persons"?