What Trinitarian churches teach about the Trinity

[Brian2]

Step back a few steps -- before 70 CE and the destruction of the Temple, back to the true beginning of Christianity when the Apostles led the cause of speading the Good News......

Is the God of Abraham the same God of Jesus? yes or no

Is the God of Jesus the same God of Christianity? yes or no

Now proceed with the discussion.......

Yes same God but with more revelation about the nature of God.

 

[Spice]

Yes same God but with more revelation about the nature of God.

Understood.
I edited my comment to clarify my reason for it. Niatero appears to be having difficulty explaining their perception on the Trinity question, so I was hoping to prompt a better starting point that will assist in the reaching of a closing argument conclusion.

 

[Niatero]

Understood.
I edited my comment to clarify my reason for it. Niatero appears to be having difficulty explaining their perception on the Trinity question, so I was hoping to prompt a better starting point that will assist in the reaching of a closing argument conclusion.

Thanks.

My conclusion is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly.

 

[Niatero]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

 

[Kenny]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

Thank you… yes, there is a distinction.

I always use mankind who is made in God’s image as the example to help understand. Man is a tri-une being - spirit, soul and body (1 Thes 5:23) - each is distinct and yet one.

 

[Soapy]

Most or all of the Trinitarian churches teach that God is three distinct persons. Now I'll give examples of how they explain what that means.

All the bolding is mine.

Methodist:


Catholic


Baptist:


Lutheran:


Presbyterian:


Episcopal:

It’s exactly as I said before… NO
ONE EVER CLAIMED THAT “The Father is the same as the Son…’ and vice versa.

It us the FALSE TEACHINGS of the churches that you listed that claim THAT THEY ARE NOT!!!

So, the real question would be: WHERE DIES THE CLAIM THAT ‘The Father is the same as the Son…’ and vice versa come from? Can anyone produce a claim of such?

 

[Soapy]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

BUT NO ONE EVER CLAIM THAT THEY ARE THE SAME…. That’s MY point?

The disclaimer is non-sequitur - a weird mixed metaphor!!!

The reason for the denial (I think) is that the trinity claim is that THE THREE are THE SAME ONE GOD… but look and see that they only say PART of their fallacy belief: ‘The Father is not the same as the Son…’ and vice versa. If they were TRYING to be true to their false belief then they would need to include the THIRD … Holy Spirit … person/God!!!

But look even closer: ‘The Father IS NOT THE SON’ etc.

Please, please, please… that is complete nonsense - the desperation of a flawed design.
Why? Because NO ONE EVER in truth claimed that ‘The Father IS THE SON’ and vice versa!!!!

 

[amazing grace]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

We all know that the Father and the Son are not the same person. But here's the thing - How can they NOT be the same person if each is God and God is ONE?

Distinct NOT separate - "There is a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity." In the English language, distinct is a synonym for separate and separate is a synonym for distinct - a synonym is a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.

 

[Brian2]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

I have found that those who are against the Trinity always seem to believe that Trinitarians teach that the Father is the Son. That seems to be how they want to understand the Trinity.
That seems to be Modalism.

 

[Rival]

@Soapy @amazing grace @Rival @Brian2 @Kenny
Thanks for posting. My point in this thread is that anyone who thinks that they believe in the Trinity might want to know that all of the Trinitarian churches teach that in the Trinity the Father and the Son are not the same person. They all say so explicitly. That's what "distinct" means, that they are not the same person. Not separate. Distinct. There's a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity.

Yes.

Although you will find that those Latin speakers who used the word 'person' in the Latin to translate the Greek hupostatis found it inadequate.

 

[Brian2]

We all know that the Father and the Son are not the same person. But here's the thing - How can they NOT be the same person if each is God and God is ONE?

Distinct NOT separate - "There is a distinction between those two words, in the theology of the Trinity." In the English language, distinct is a synonym for separate and separate is a synonym for distinct - a synonym is a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.

Yes it is easy to see the distinctness of the persons of the trinity but the oneness is less easy to see and especially the distinctness and oneness at the same time.
But people aren't told in the Bible that they must be able to understand it.

When I look up synonyms for "distinct" I find more than one meaning for "distinct". When it is an adjective,, meaning "apparent" or "obvious", I do not find "separate" as a synonmy. When "distinct" is used as an adjective, meaning "different" "unconnected" I find "separate" as a synonym.

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When distinct is used of the persons in the trinity it means "apparent" or "obvious" as in, you can see that there are 3 different persons.

 

[Brian2]

It’s exactly as I said before… NO
ONE EVER CLAIMED THAT “The Father is the same as the Son…’ and vice versa.

It us the FALSE TEACHINGS of the churches that you listed that claim THAT THEY ARE NOT!!!

So, the real question would be: WHERE DIES THE CLAIM THAT ‘The Father is the same as the Son…’ and vice versa come from? Can anyone produce a claim of such?

You don't claim that the Father is the Son or vice versa, but you do seem to claim that this is what the trinity teaches.

 

[amazing grace]

Thank you… yes, there is a distinction.

I always use mankind who is made in God’s image as the example to help understand. Man is a tri-une being - spirit, soul and body (1 Thes 5:23) - each is distinct and yet one.

"Yes, there is a distinction." In the English language, distinct is a synonym for separate and separate is a synonym for distinct - a synonym is a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.

"man is a triune being - spirit, soul, and body" - Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you COMPLETELY and may your WHOLE spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - the complete whole being of man is comprised of spirit and soul and body.
So, what is being said is that God is comprised of spirit (God, God the Holy Spirit); and soul (God the Father) and body (God the Son)? Is that how that analogy works?

 

[cataway]

are angels holy spirits ? Father,son, and holy angels denote an organization. not all angels are the same. there is no trinity ,all son's of god are subordinate to the father

 

[amazing grace]

Yes it is easy to see the distinctness of the persons of the trinity but the oneness is less easy to see and especially the distinctness and oneness at the same time.
But people aren't told in the Bible that they must be able to understand it.

When I look up synonyms for "distinct" I find more than one meaning for "distinct". When it is an adjective,, meaning "apparent" or "obvious", I do not find "separate" as a synonmy. When "distinct" is used as an adjective, meaning "different" "unconnected" I find "separate" as a synonym.

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When distinct is used of the persons in the trinity it means "apparent" or "obvious" as in, you can see that there are 3 different persons.

If we are not told we must be able to understand it, then why are people who don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine often labeled as a "heretic"?

Actually, both usages of distinct are adjectives - one meaning apparent, obvious (syn: definite, noticeable, recognizable, specific, unmistakable)
and the other meaning different, unconnected (syn: discrete, disparate, dissimilar, distinctive, divergent, diverse, offbeat, particular, peculiar, separate, special, specific, unique, various)
You are using the meaning of #1 in connection with the word distinct and yet #2 has as a synonym "distinctive" so when speaking of distinct wouldn't it also mean distinctive?

And when you say "3 different persons", what exactly do you mean because that seems to contradict how you are implying the word "distinct"?
#1 different (adj) dissimilar, unlike (syn: disparate, distinct, divergent, unalike, unlike, unsimilar)
#2 different (adj) various (assorted, diverse, various, varying)
#3 different (adj) not identical, other or distinct (another, distinct, other, discrete, separate)
#4 different (adj) unusual (bizarre, distinctive, extraordinary, offbeat, peculiar, rare, special, strange, unconventional, unique, unusual)

 

[PureX]

This is one of those concepts that suffer greatly from people's inability/unwillingness to clearly articulate an ideal.

When people claim the trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God, what does that even mean? What is a "person" in this context? Because the tradition meaning of that term does not apply to this context. So if the application of it in this context is not being explained, no one is going to know why it's being applied, here.

Do they mean three distinct personalities within one 'personage'? Do they mean three distinct expressions of one divine spirit?

The problem is that a lot of people don't know what they mean because God is a mystery. While others mean different things even as they say the same words. And this all makes any discussion of the subject very confusing and unproductive. Especially when we are dealing with 'believers' that are intent on protecting those beliefs, whatever they are.

 

[shunyadragon]

I’ve decided that it’s time for some lessons about the Trinity. It isn’t as simple as I thought it was. What I mean by “Trinitarian churches” is churches that say they believe in The Trinity, more or less what people call “mainstream churches.” I’ll start with Methodist churches as an example.


- God (www.umc.org)

One key word here is “distinct.”

---

(later)

More examples. The bolding in all of these is mine.

Another example, from the Catholic Answers Encyclopedia


Southern Baptist:


Evangelical Lutheran:


Presbyterian:


Episcopal:


They all say that God is three distinct persons. Some examples of how they explain that are in post #18.

God described as three distinct persons is polytheism. The Bible goes beyond three distinct person to three separate person in the text.

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

 

[Niatero]

You don't claim that the Father is the Son or vice versa, but you do seem to claim that this is what the trinity teaches.

I don't see him saying that. You might have seen him saying that the Trinity teaches that Jesus is God, which for some people is different from saying that the Father is the Son. They can say "Jesus is God" without thinking that the Father is the Son.

 

[Soapy]

You don't claim that the Father is the Son or vice versa, but you do seem to claim that this is what the trinity teaches.

Oh Brian2, you live to put false belief in the mouth of truth sayers….!! Stop it… stop right now!!!

What I said was that ‘THAT IS THE RESULT OF TRINITY TEACHINGS’….!!

That does not mean that I am CLAIMING as explicit teachings BUT THAT it’s the outcome of what trinity says.

Trinity claims that JESUS IS GOD because Jesus said:

• ‘I and the Father are ONE’
• God is the Father

Is that not true - is that not what trinity claims?

YOU have a different take on the trinity fallacy by claiming a DUAL GOD IN ONE… a BINITY.
In fact, your belief is so crazy that it’s laughable if it wasn’t for loving feelings of trying to get you to see the truth by persisting with you.

The straps of fallacy rollercoaster that you are are so tightly bound around you that they prevents you from jumping of it even as we attempt to get you off it.

Brian2, we have your best interest at heart to show you that a Binity is only a little less crazier than the Trinity claim (and that is some damn-awful nonsense it itself).

You claim Jesus IS ‘The Son of God’ but then claim that Jesus IS GOD…!!??

Brian2, what does ‘the Father’ mean, Scripturally and Spiritually?

Brian2, what ‘the Son’ mean, Scripturally, and Spiritually?

Answer these two questions as a start - I’ll look for straight out answers so don’t swerve them? AND, if you are an reverential, an honest, a sincere, and true ku God-minded individual, you WILL ANSWER in truth and honesty and in reverence to your God (ooops - to the TRUE GOD, YHWH, who is the Father!)

Start explaining your belief from there - start a thread about “The Binity God - proof by deduction from Scriptures”
I’ll look forward to seeing you there!

 

[Niatero]

Oh Brian2, you live to put false belief in the mouth of truth sayers….!! Stop it… stop right now!!!

What I said was that ‘THAT IS THE RESULT OF TRINITY TEACHINGS’….!!

I'm not sure about that. What I think is that saying that Jesus is God sometimes leads to people thinking that they are the same person. That isn't actually what the Trinitarian churches teach, but that's mostly what people think they teach.

(later) I’m saying now that I don’t agree with any Trinity beliefs that people are promoting here, and I don’t agree with the Teachings of any churches about the Trinity, if they mean what I think they mean to most people.