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what turns you off from Christianity?
- Thread starter truelight Mike
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes, but people like pretzels, so that's not really a good reason on its own.
I don't like pretzels.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
What? You must be some sort of alien. This is incomprehensible to me.
I'm British. We only eat terrible food.
It's like waiting for:
Godot
Jesus
King Arthur
MacArthur
[insert mythical or historical figure of your choice here]
There's plenty of stuff in Christianity that I either think is false or have no reason to accept as true, but thinking back when I tried my utmost to be a Christian, the biggest obstacle for me was that I felt like becoming Christian would get in the way of me being a good person.
I realized a while back that there's a big difference in the viewpoint of a believer versus a non-believer - for any religion, not just Christianity:
- the believer can appreciate the good and the bad of their religion and can see it as a net positive.
- the non-believer can cherry-pick whatever he finds demonstrably good in a religion without joining - we can steal good ideas from anywhere. This means that joining a religion means accepting two things:
- the good stuff that you can't get without being a member (though I've never actually found anything that fits this bill, IMO)
- the bad stuff: the stuff that's unjustified at best and downright evil at worst.
I don't think that any denomination of Christianity I'm familiar with really has that much to do with Jesus.
... though I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. I have issues with the Jesus described in the Bible.
WHAT?! Heresy!
I am going to assume you have not been introduced to real pretzels. Anything that isn't a real pretzel is indeed very "meh."
Uh-huh! Using the "no true pretzel" fallacy, I see!WHAT?! Heresy!
I am going to assume you have not been introduced to real pretzels. Anything that isn't a real pretzel is indeed very "meh."
I don't drink coke either. And I prefer my coffee black with no sugar.WHAT?! Heresy!
I am going to assume you have not been introduced to real pretzels. Anything that isn't a real pretzel is indeed very "meh."
Losin
Member
What are you reffering to ?One thing that turns me off about Christianity is when Christian posters cut and paste pages of Bible verse.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Heathen! Blasphemer!
Uh-huh! Using the "no true pretzel" fallacy, I see!
Nonsense. The true pretzels exist. All you have to do is avoid the industrial, mass produced things that call themselves "pretzels." Real pretzels have to be made fresh, using tried and true, traditional methods. I didn't understand the difference until a real pretzel maker started selling in my town. Now I preach the gospel of the true pretzels!
*cough*
Okay. I'll... I'll just stop now.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's not unusual to ask for evidence to support a claim, and some Christian members will do nothing more than quote the Bible.
Losin
Member
Oh I thought it was response to post above
Shad
Veteran Member
"Finally, if he does not heed the Church, let all truy consider him to be a heathen, i.e. a pagan, and because of this, he may now be rightly oppressed by the external powers as an outsider. It is also certain that God often arouses the powers against the deniers of Christ, against the desertors of baptism. Therefore let no one be surprised that God incites the powers, so that that these men may bend their necks and return, humbled, to the Church."
Lovely how you omit the mention of force, and its authorization, used against people if they do not agree with Christianity.
Also note that is chapter start the claim that all the people were baptized. However this was never historical fact for the time. So either the claim is in error, or forced baptism was used with people reverting when not under scrutiny of the King.
Yeah... the King James Bible may be an outdated mess, and grossly inaccurate, but... it does contain some of the finest Early Modern English poetry. DX
I don't like pretzels either, BTW.
From America, thanks for that inheritance, by the way.
I never omitted anything, I provided the source for people to go and read it for themselves, which I'm glad you did.
I don't have space to include everything due to forum limitations (which is why I linked to the source) - so, obviously, I'm going to select the parts relevant to my argument. And they are substantial, as you no doubt saw.
What is not abundantly clear about this statement:
Chapter XLI.
Concerning those who refuse to receive the good of Christianity and sacrifice and bend their knees to idols, we can write nothing else to you than that you move them towards the right faith by warnings, exhortations, and reason rather than by force, proving that what they know in vain, is wrong: [cf. Jer. 1:16] namely that, although they are people with capable intellects, they nevertheless adore works of their own hands and senseless elements, or rather they bow their necks and sacrifice to demons. For as the apostle teaches: We know that an idol is nothing, but whatever the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons.[I Cor. 8:4; 10:20]...Yet, violence should by no means be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For everything which is not voluntary, cannot be good; for it is written: Willingly shall I sacrifice to you,[Ps. 53:8] and again: Make all the commands of my mouth your will,[Ps. 118:108] and again, And by my own will I shall confess to Him.[Ps. 27:7] Indeed, God commands that willing service be performed only by the willing. But if you ask about what should be judged concerning perfidious persons of this sort, listen to the apostle Paul who, when he wrote to the Corinthians, says: Why indeed is it my business to judge concerning those who are outside? Do you not judge concerning those who are inside? God will judge those who are outside. Remove the evil from yourselves.[I Cor. 5:12-13] It is as if he said: Concerning those who are outside our religion, I shall judge nothing, but I shall save them for the judgment of God, Who is going to judge all flesh.
Concerning those who refuse to receive the good of Christianity and sacrifice and bend their knees to idols, we can write nothing else to you than that you move them towards the right faith by warnings, exhortations, and reason rather than by force, proving that what they know in vain, is wrong: [cf. Jer. 1:16] namely that, although they are people with capable intellects, they nevertheless adore works of their own hands and senseless elements, or rather they bow their necks and sacrifice to demons. For as the apostle teaches: We know that an idol is nothing, but whatever the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons.[I Cor. 8:4; 10:20]...Yet, violence should by no means be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For everything which is not voluntary, cannot be good; for it is written: Willingly shall I sacrifice to you,[Ps. 53:8] and again: Make all the commands of my mouth your will,[Ps. 118:108] and again, And by my own will I shall confess to Him.[Ps. 27:7] Indeed, God commands that willing service be performed only by the willing. But if you ask about what should be judged concerning perfidious persons of this sort, listen to the apostle Paul who, when he wrote to the Corinthians, says: Why indeed is it my business to judge concerning those who are outside? Do you not judge concerning those who are inside? God will judge those who are outside. Remove the evil from yourselves.[I Cor. 5:12-13] It is as if he said: Concerning those who are outside our religion, I shall judge nothing, but I shall save them for the judgment of God, Who is going to judge all flesh.
I think that's pretty clear. You can't force anyone to believe in Christianity, it has to be voluntary. Don't presume to judge people who don't want to join your religion in this life, just leave them to the judgement of God in the afterlife. Do you agree that's fairly clear?
If he believes everything that isn't voluntary is morally wrong, I have a hard time following your interpretation of his statement above. The Pope is emphatic that conversion must be voluntary, not coerced. He explicitly says that if a person's decision isn't voluntary, then that's bad and not acceptable.
The Pope never claimed this - Boris did:
Now then, you have told us about how you received the Christian religion by divine clemency and made your entire people be baptized,
The Pope is only going along with the story Boris told him. And Boris told him that he made the people be "baptized". The Pope then tells him that this would have to have been done willingly on the part of the people themselves to be a valid baptism. He cautions that Boris cannot coerce anyone against their will.
And he tells Boris that, regardless of this, the lives of the people who rebelled should have been spared - even those actually guilty of treason.
Clearly since we only have Boris to go on, we're getting a biased and perhaps contradictory account but I dont understand how you can fault the Pope for that. He can only answer the questions Boris asks him using the information Boris gives him.
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