What will the return of Jesus really Change?

[Awoon]

Most Christians will be SOL.

:run:

 

[Windwalker]

And Rods of Iron will be given instead to those who obey the commandments of God.

The Taliban?

 

[Windwalker]

Personally, if you look at how well others received the Wisdom when he was here, how unable they were to, I cannot imagine how ramming it down their throats like molten lead will actually do anything more than Grace could not. Can you?

I think ruling with a rod of iron, is ego finally getting to say "I'm right!!!!". All the while, a beam is in their eye.

I think the first the Jesus would actually do, is rebuke religious fundamentalists that use his name and say, you never knew me.

 

[thau]

Will anything change in the World?

It will change you - - - into a sheep or a goat.

Haven't you heard?

The Judgment (Matthew 25)

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Awoon]

It will change you - - - into a sheep or a goat.

Haven't you heard?

The Judgment (Matthew 25)

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

But what will change? Religions do that now. Just join one of them.

 

[thau]

But what will change? Religions do that now. Just join one of them.

Fine, then I am not sure what you're perplexed about? Either you believe or you do not. There are consequences.

I can tell you this... 'tis far easier being at peace certain you know the truth about God and our purpose, than it is not feeling confident about any of one's beliefs.

 

[Shermana]

The Taliban?

Similar in a way. But hey, that's what the text says.

Technically, every government is a Taliban of sorts, whether they are enforcing Shariah, or Secular Law, or Hindu law, etc.

 

[Shermana]

:tuna:

Personally, if you look at how well others received the Wisdom when he was here, how unable they were to, I cannot imagine how ramming it down their throats like molten lead will actually do anything more than Grace could not. Can you?

I think ruling with a rod of iron, is ego finally getting to say "I'm right!!!!". All the while, a beam is in their eye.

I think the first the Jesus would actually do, is rebuke religious fundamentalists that use his name and say, you never knew me.

Religious fundamentalists who abuse and twist the NT and claim Jesus's teachings and to be his disciples will probably be the first to feel the cold hard smack of the Iron rods. At that point, no one will be able to convince people of anything away from their confirmation biases and ego-mania-driven beliefs, and the only language they will understand is :tuna:.

Oh wait, we may already be there.

 

[rusra02]

Will you be on the jury or just be celebrating the judicial punishments?

I believe God does not desire any to be destroyed, and neither do his true followers. (2 Peter 3:9) But he will accomplish his purpose toward the earth to bring peace and everlasting life. This can not happen while wicked ones hold sway.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Seeing as it's not going to happen, nothing will change in that regard. But that doesn't stop the religious kooks from setting dates. Lol.

 

[Windwalker]

Similar in a way. But hey, that's what the text says.

And you think this is effective? You believe throwing acid in the face of a sinner is the way to get them to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength?

Yes, the text says this. And back in the day, in a world that the Taliban still lives, this is justified. You force obedience on people, but it will never be something from the heart for them. It is completely ineffective, if at the same time you wish to liberate people from bondage. The two are not compatible with one another, and are a complete contradiction. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", is not compatible with ruling with a rod of iron, breaking the bones of those who dare violate one jot or tittle of the law.

Technically, every government is a Taliban of sorts, whether they are enforcing Shariah, or Secular Law, or Hindu law, etc.

I would disagree that every government rules with an iron rod. North Korea does. They are still operating at the might is right mode of thought. In no way do I believe Jesus had a "might is right" mentality.

 

[Shermana]

You believe throwing acid in the face of a sinner is the way to get them to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength?

Who said anything about throwing acid?

It's not about making them love God. It's about going through with what God wants. He had King David cut down the sacred poles and idols of the idolatrous priests, and I'm assuming he slayed and flogged a lot of them who got in the way. If they don't want to Love God, that's their choice. No one's forcing them. It's a commandment to love God nonetheless.

You force obedience on people, but it will never be something from the heart for them.

Okay, so? We're talking about when God himself rules and appoints people whom he wants in charge. His will shall be done and his system implemented, regardless if people want it from their hearts. If they don't see the wisdom of it, then that's their problem.

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty",

You're looking at this from too much of a modern liberal post-"Enlightenment" era perspective.

The concept of "Liberty" in this case, means more or less "Freedom". But what kind of Freedom exactly?

Paul also says to always strictly obey the government.

It's clearly talking about some freedom other than a "Do as thou wilt" mentality.

Even today, we have systems of legal force in place to cultivate a particular idea or ideology, whether they are good or bad, such as civil rights legislation. Now how is forcing an employer to not discriminate going to make him love the system from his heart if he wants to discriminate?

I would disagree that every government rules with an iron rod.

North Korea just does it for more political reasons. America uses a rod of iron, as does England and France, just in more subtle ways. Every nation enforces its will and cements its rule with brute force. Troublemakers and threats to the status quo are dealt with no matter if its North Korea or Sweden or Brazil.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Who said anything about throwing acid?

It's not about making them love God. It's about going through with what God wants. He had King David cut down the sacred poles and idols of the idolatrous priests, and I'm assuming he slayed and flogged a lot of them who got in the way. If they don't want to Love God, that's their choice. No one's forcing them. It's a commandment to love God nonetheless.



Okay, so? We're talking about when God himself rules and appoints people whom he wants in charge. His will shall be done and his system implemented, regardless if people want it from their hearts. If they don't see the wisdom of it, then that's their problem.



You're looking at this from too much of a modern liberal post-"Enlightenment" era perspective.

The concept of "Liberty" in this case, means more or less "Freedom". But what kind of Freedom exactly?

Paul also says to always strictly obey the government.

It's clearly talking about some freedom other than a "Do as thou wilt" mentality.

Even today, we have systems of legal force in place to cultivate a particular idea or ideology, whether they are good or bad, such as civil rights legislation. Now how is forcing an employer to not discriminate going to make him love the system from his heart if he wants to discriminate?



North Korea just does it for more political reasons. America uses a rod of iron, as does England and France, just in more subtle ways. Every nation enforces its will and cements its rule with brute force. Troublemakers and threats to the status quo are dealt with no matter if its North Korea or Sweden or Brazil.

Which is why people don't agree with a Lord who rules with an Iron. It worked well back in the day, but the concept doesn't fit now. The Ruler with the Iron Rod is the ruler from the days of kings and bondsmen lol. The moment you start attributing qualities such as freedoms, rights, and you start talking about the universe and a God that is omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent. To say things as Command, Wants, Needs is to make that God seem human. A God who appears human is a God who will be rebelled against, regardless if it is on earth or in heaven.

 

[Windwalker]

Who said anything about throwing acid?

It's not about making them love God. It's about going through with what God wants. He had King David cut down the sacred poles and idols of the idolatrous priests, and I'm assuming he slayed and flogged a lot of them who got in the way. If they don't want to Love God, that's their choice. No one's forcing them. It's a commandment to love God nonetheless.

Throwing acid in the face, flogging and slaying, what's the difference?

Now what I find so interesting in our discussions when we have them, is how you understand love. How can a love that is commanded be genuine love? Furthermore, saying no one is forcing them to love God, but then threatening them with flogging, stoning, beheading, acid in the face, whatnot, that results in a love bred out of terrorism. It's called the Stockholm Syndrome, where a hostage being threatened with death or harm falls in love with their captor.

That is not love. It's a psycho-emotional response to self-preservation. That is no God I know, nor would want to.

Okay, so? We're talking about when God himself rules and appoints people whom he wants in charge. His will shall be done and his system implemented, regardless if people want it from their hearts. If they don't see the wisdom of it, then that's their problem.

Are you describing the God of Love, or a warlord?

I hear a warlord.

You're looking at this from too much of a modern liberal post-"Enlightenment" era perspective.

The concept of "Liberty" in this case, means more or less "Freedom". But what kind of Freedom exactly?

Paul also says to always strictly obey the government.

It's clearly talking about some freedom other than a "Do as thou wilt" mentality.

I certainly am not speaking some do-as-you-will extreme postmodernist mentality when speaking of freedom. I am speaking of freedom from the terror of a warlord threatening you to love him or else you get acid thrown in your face, or broken with a rod of iron over your back.

I am not speaking in terms of modern philosophies read into this. I am speaking from a heart that has, and does know that unconditional love of God, face to face. What you describe belongs to our primitive past fitting a certain vision of a social order with a tribal God destroying all who don't comply.

Even today, we have systems of legal force in place to cultivate a particular idea or ideology, whether they are good or bad, such as civil rights legislation. Now how is forcing an employer to not discriminate going to make him love the system from his heart if he wants to discriminate?

We are talking about respecting and preserving the rights and liberties of others. The laws do not force them to love them. But what you describe punished those who don't love God.

Let me add something powerful to this. Modernity, despite its flaws and shortcomings, is responsible for the end of slavery. No "rod of iron" rule of our past ever brought any end to slavery. It's systems of governments have brought more freedom and respect to humanity, and here it is, less violence than any system before it. So to believe, in some distorted ideology which ignores such things, that going back to burning people's eyes out, or staking them, or cutting their hands off, or riding hard on them in some sort of religious police-state is going to bring an improvement, you are sadly and tragically mistaken. Those systems are a thing of the past.

We're not done yet, and I feel through fits and starts we are moving more and more to a world of love, if and when we can shed ourselves of this ethnocentric, rule of iron notion that is a thing of our immature past.

North Korea just does it for more political reasons. America uses a rod of iron, as does England and France, just in more subtle ways. Every nation enforces its will and cements its rule with brute force. Troublemakers and threats to the status quo are dealt with no matter if its North Korea or Sweden or Brazil.

Are you trying to soften what the term "rod of iron" means? To me that term means one thing, forced compliance. Compulsion under the threat of doom. Is that what you'd like to see? Would this make you feel justified, or more safe somehow?

Where is the love?

 

[Shermana]

What you are dancing away from is that "Forced compliance" is something you experience every day. If you drive over the Speed Limit, you will get pulled over. If you drive drunk, you will get arrested. If you dance naked through the streets, you will be arrested (unless its in San Francisco!). Those are the equivalent of "lashing" if not worse. The behaviors that the Torah will forbid, which ones are you so afraid of violating or want to violate so badly?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

To the primitive man of War God appeared to them as a warrior. To the men of philosophy God appeared as Wisdom. To those who sought love between the conflicts, God appeared.

 

[psychoslice]

To the primitive man of War God appeared to them as a warrior. To the men of philosophy God appeared as Wisdom. To those who sought love between the conflicts, God appeared.

Very nicely said, I hope more will start thinking this way, the old backward thinking has gone on for too long.

 

[Windwalker]

What you are dancing away from is that "Forced compliance" is something you experience every day. If you drive over the Speed Limit, you will get pulled over. If you drive drunk, you will get arrested. If you dance naked through the streets, you will be arrested (unless its in San Francisco!). Those are the equivalent of "lashing" if not worse. The behaviors that the Torah will forbid, which ones are you so afraid of violating or want to violate so badly?

Then why do we need a rule of iron rod to fix this? How do you imagine an "iron rod" rule different than this? And if not different, then why replace this with it? Please explain.

 

[Windwalker]

To the primitive man of War God appeared to them as a warrior. To the men of philosophy God appeared as Wisdom. To those who sought love between the conflicts, God appeared.

Exactly. To those interested, look a spiral dynamics: Spiral Dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is being described in the "iron rod" rule, is the blue vMeme in the list. Where we are at in modernity is orange. Postmodernity is green. And then there is beyond that in the yellow (or teal) ,and then the Turquoise. A blue vMeme rule in no way can relate to a teal or turquoise, and would see it as a heretic, not "loving God" in their definitions of compulsory love, and they would stone them to death. Or crucify them, depending on the preferred mode of execution.

 

[Awoon]

To the primitive man of War God appeared to them as a warrior. To the men of philosophy God appeared as Wisdom. To those who sought love between the conflicts, God appeared.

To whom does any God appear to today?