What would you expect people to do if a real God sent a real Messenger to earth?

[PureX]

So faith is wishful thinking?

No, faith is wishful action in the face of honest human limitation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So once we recognize this, the next step is to hone it through the imagination and desire that we used to generate it in the first place, into a narrative that we can follow through on in life action. And then the results will tell us how to change/perfect it, as is needed or possible.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Did you define "metaphysical" with that "internalized gibberish" you were talking about?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, faith is wishful action in the face of honest human limitation.

What form does this action take, besides thinking?

 

[PureX]

What form does this action take, besides thinking?

That depends on the hoped for objective and what that requires from us in terms of participation.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, which is an absurd assumption given the vast realm of existence that we humans cannot observe or measure.
You have so limited your definition of "evidence" that only your false conclusion can possibly be arrived at.
No, because it's what YOU believe, and what YOU made up, despite the obvious and absurd bias and flaws in your criteria.
How do we measure it? What physical form does it comprise? What energy pattern generates it?
The fact that you just wrote that is a metaphysical expression of reality/existence.

Then it is not evidence it is imagination/assumption.

Wrong, my definition of evidence is the accepted definition, if you want to change it to suite your personal belief then have as word with the dictionaries.

What is to make up regarding the lack of evidence for a god or for ghod magic? Perhaps you have access to evidence, so please provide evidence of god magic, I'll wait for your evidence as people have been waiting for 10000+ years

What bias and flaws? That my criteria of reality doesn't include imagination and God magic, unlike you i have not made anything up.

What? "a metaphysical expression of reality/existence." Read the definitions and you realise you have just printed a contradiction in terms but on the plus side, it does explain why you consider faith to be reality

 

[PureX]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Did you define "metaphysical" with that "internalized gibberish" you were talking about?

Cognitive reality is a metaphysical reality. So denying the existence of metaphysical reality is absurd. The very act of defining existence generates a conceptual realm set apart from and outside of the physical experience of being.

 

[ChristineM]

metaphysical reality

Oxymoron

 

[james blunt]

How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?

Exactly you have one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Exactly you have one.

No, the dog has four legs. Calling its tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

 

[sojourner]

No, i am assuming the any evidence is factual or can be measured/observed.

All you need to do is provide evidence by the definition of the word. And that is my criterion, the definition, not what you believe, not what you make up despite evidence to the contrasty and certainly not " i don't know so god dun it"

Self awareness is a measurable attribute, all living beings are conscious to some degree, in some respects it can relate to serlf awareness.

Metaphysics is a philosophy and based on abstract hypothesis and has no basis in reality.

Do you really want to talk logic? reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

No, that is absurdity at its most obtuse, what you are saying is thst because you believe god magic then god magic must be real because you believe in god magic. You cannot provide any evidence, or even a good logical argument, instead you rely on the immeasurable, the guesswork, the "i dont know so god"

I get where you’re going with this. I would counter with the idea that thought-forms are just as real as tangible, measurable objects and forces. Otherwise, placebos wouldn’t work.

IMO, All religion is, is a system of speaking and thinking in metaphors, that points us toward thought-forms that (hopefully) seek to allow us deeper and more meaningful life-experiences as we interact with the world. That goes beyond what another poster dismissed as simply “wishful thinking.” Faith is a motivational tool that seeks to strengthen theological thought-forms. Other endeavors (such as sports) use such tools. But they tend to take the forms of positive thinking and visualization of outcomes for the individual. Faith tends to work more in terms of cosmology than in terms of personal achievement.

 

[sojourner]

How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?

This doesn’t work, though, with metaphor. One can assign whatever metaphor is helpful, and still be safely within the realm of valid metaphor when working to come to a deeper understanding of the target concept.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This doesn’t work, though, with metaphor. One can assign whatever metaphor is helpful, and still be safely within the realm of valid metaphor when working to come to a deeper understanding of the target concept.

Are you saying that God is a metaphor?

 

[ChristineM]

I get where you’re going with this. I would counter with the idea that thought-forms are just as real as tangible, measurable objects and forces. Otherwise, placebos wouldn’t work.

IMO, All religion is, is a system of speaking and thinking in metaphors, that points us toward thought-forms that (hopefully) seek to allow us deeper and more meaningful life-experiences as we interact with the world. That goes beyond what another poster dismissed as simply “wishful thinking.” Faith is a motivational tool that seeks to strengthen theological thought-forms. Other endeavors (such as sports) use such tools. But they tend to take the forms of positive thinking and visualization of outcomes for the individual. Faith tends to work more in terms of cosmology than in terms of personal achievement.

Yes thought happens, but is it a physical phenomenon or the product of a physical phenomenon, a chemical reaction?

To some people faith is a motivational tool, to others it is restrictive, obsessive bar to human advancement. As for faith taking on the cloak of cosmology, that is not my experience, religious tend to gather in cliques to the exclusion of the greater good.

 

[PureX]

Yes thought happens, but is it a physical phenomenon or the product of a physical phenomenon, a chemical reaction?

It doesn't matter. The end result is a whole new form of reality. A "meta" form of realty. A reality that is both apart from and a part of that which is, and is therefor self-aware, and self-evaluating. What you think of in your mind as "reality" is, in fact, a meta-reality. Just as the complex physical forces and interactions that allow this phenomena to occur in your mind are meta-physical.

 

[sojourner]

Yes thought happens, but is it a physical phenomenon or the product of a physical phenomenon, a chemical reaction?

To some people faith is a motivational tool, to others it is restrictive, obsessive bar to human advancement. As for faith taking on the cloak of cosmology, that is not my experience, religious tend to gather in cliques to the exclusion of the greater good.

I *might* suggest that these “others” are in dire need of finding something that works for them?

Yes, some religious do what you say, and it’s problematic, as well as anathema to what spirituality is for.

 

[ChristineM]

It doesn't matter. The end result is a whole new form of reality. A "meta" form of realty. A reality that is both apart from and a part of that which is, and is therefor self-aware, and self-evaluating. What you think of in your mind as "reality" is, in fact, a meta-reality. Just as the complex physical forces and interactions that allow this phenomena to occur in your mind are meta-physical.

Wrong, the end result is a imagination.

Please provide valid evidence (read the definition) that there is such a meta reality or physicality. Both of which are oxymorons

 

[ChristineM]

I *might* suggest that these “others” are in dire need of finding something that works for them?

Yes, some religious do what you say, and it’s problematic, as well as anathema to what spirituality is for.

Those others represent the greater proportion of the faithful.

Certainly the Abrahamic religions are very self self self

 

[james blunt]

No, the dog has four legs. Calling its tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

The quantity is the importance not the name, is the point.

 

[sojourner]

Wrong, the end result is a imagination.

Please provide valid evidence (read the definition) that there is such a meta reality or physicality. Both of which are oxymorons

Imagination is a thought-form, which is proven to aid in self-improvement.

 

[sojourner]

Those others represent the greater proportion of the faithful.

Certainly the Abrahamic religions are very self self self

Majority =/= “right.”

If that’s what you believe about Judaism and Xy, you need to take a deeper look. They’re both about community. Thats why love is so central to both. Love is about relationships between people.