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Whataboutism: Some general thoughts

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
First, the definition:

Whataboutism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster


Definition of whataboutism

: the act or practice of responding to an accusation of wrongdoing by claiming that an offense committed by another is similar or worse

The exchange is indicative of a rhetorical strategy known as whataboutism, which occurs when officials implicated in wrongdoing whip out a counter-example of a similar abuse from the accusing country, with the goal of undermining the legitimacy of the criticism itself.— Olga Khazan

By whataboutism I mean the way any discussion can be short-circuited by saying "but what about x???" where x is usually something that's not really equivalent but is close enough to turn the conversation into mush.— Touré

also : the response itself

They accomplish it by muddying the waters and distracting from international criticisms with whataboutisms such as telling the world that there's nothing exceptional about America.— Alex Zeldin

— called also (chiefly British) whataboutery


Here is Wikipedia's link: Whataboutism - Wikipedia

Here is an article from the Merriam-Webster site: What is 'whataboutism'? | Merriam-Webster

"Whataboutism" was added to Webster's in October, 2021, although it appears it's been in use in Britain for several decades now, ostensibly originating in the 1970s.

Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument.[1][2][3]

I don't dispute the basic notion that Whataboutism is a logical fallacy, as noted here - a variant of the tu quoque fallacy, which means "you too." It's obvious that, in the context of an accusation of a defendant in a court case, it's not a defense to claim that "other people do it too."

If the goal of an accusation is to simply call attention to someone's wrongdoing, then that's what courtrooms are for. Outside of that structured environment, then the rules are a bit less rigid.

Outside of that formal environment, the reasons and motives for calling attention to someone's wrongdoing are more a matter of politics and trying to influence public opinion against the target of someone's accusation.

The quotes in the definition above and the general consensus I've seen from those who complain about "whataboutism" essentially express frustration that it "muddies the waters," "short-circuits" a discussion, and/or undermines the legitimacy of the original criticism.

On the other hand, if someone's sole intent is to blacken the reputation of an individual, a government, or a political ideology, then that might also be seen as a rhetorical strategy in and of itself. Sometimes, it can be interpreted as disingenuous character assassination, depending on the context and the nature of the accusations.

If someone is attacking someone else to make themselves look good, then, quite frankly, they've already opened the door to a "whataboutist" line of argumentation, and therefore, they have no leg to stand on in criticizing it.

Worse still, the person complaining about whataboutism could be making a tacit admission that they have no consistent set of moral principles and are disingenuously using a moral judgment as a propaganda ploy to influence others. It's mainly designed to appeal to people's emotions anyway.

It may be useful from the standpoint of riling up public opinion and perhaps coming up with a pretext for war or some other hostile action against a country.

That's why politicians and governments do it, but in reading the criticisms of whataboutism as a "logical fallacy," I find myself wondering why anyone believes that an accusation or moral judgment is worthy of any kind of "logical" response to begin with. It's a rhetorical ploy, and whataboutism is merely a reflective demonstration of the process in action.

This is not so much a defense of whataboutism as much as it's an attack on the kinds of statements which usually invite whataboutism as a response.

To address some of the criticisms of whataboutism, the byline of the Merriam-Webster article (linked above) asks: "If everyone is guilty of something, is no one guilty of anything?"

I would answer that by asking another question: Why is so godawful bloody important to find someone "guilty" of something in the first place? Unless you're in an actual court of law bringing formal charges against someone, what is the point? If it's in the context of public policy or foreign policy, can't we just approach the matter from the standpoint of our practical and logical national interests? Are moral judgments even necessary in the context of geopolitics, or is it just so much bunkum for the masses and not to be taken seriously?
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I would answer that by asking another question: Why is so godawful bloody important to find someone "guilty" of something in the first place? Unless you're in an actual court of law bringing formal charges against someone, what is the point?

It's a side effect of our society. The way frame our thoughts and actions, seems built upon a guilt/blame framework.

When someone does something wrong or illegal, we immediately flock to a punishment mindset. If we spent more time discerning the Why behind the crime, and how to address it, I think the less we'd focus on Guilt and Blame, and the more we would move forward as a more positive society.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
First, the definition:

Whataboutism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster


Definition of whataboutism

: the act or practice of responding to an accusation of wrongdoing by claiming that an offense committed by another is similar or worse

The exchange is indicative of a rhetorical strategy known as whataboutism, which occurs when officials implicated in wrongdoing whip out a counter-example of a similar abuse from the accusing country, with the goal of undermining the legitimacy of the criticism itself.— Olga Khazan

By whataboutism I mean the way any discussion can be short-circuited by saying "but what about x???" where x is usually something that's not really equivalent but is close enough to turn the conversation into mush.— Touré

also : the response itself

They accomplish it by muddying the waters and distracting from international criticisms with whataboutisms such as telling the world that there's nothing exceptional about America.— Alex Zeldin

— called also (chiefly British) whataboutery


Here is Wikipedia's link: Whataboutism - Wikipedia

Here is an article from the Merriam-Webster site: What is 'whataboutism'? | Merriam-Webster

"Whataboutism" was added to Webster's in October, 2021, although it appears it's been in use in Britain for several decades now, ostensibly originating in the 1970s.



I don't dispute the basic notion that Whataboutism is a logical fallacy, as noted here - a variant of the tu quoque fallacy, which means "you too." It's obvious that, in the context of an accusation of a defendant in a court case, it's not a defense to claim that "other people do it too."

If the goal of an accusation is to simply call attention to someone's wrongdoing, then that's what courtrooms are for. Outside of that structured environment, then the rules are a bit less rigid.

Outside of that formal environment, the reasons and motives for calling attention to someone's wrongdoing are more a matter of politics and trying to influence public opinion against the target of someone's accusation.

The quotes in the definition above and the general consensus I've seen from those who complain about "whataboutism" essentially express frustration that it "muddies the waters," "short-circuits" a discussion, and/or undermines the legitimacy of the original criticism.

On the other hand, if someone's sole intent is to blacken the reputation of an individual, a government, or a political ideology, then that might also be seen as a rhetorical strategy in and of itself. Sometimes, it can be interpreted as disingenuous character assassination, depending on the context and the nature of the accusations.

If someone is attacking someone else to make themselves look good, then, quite frankly, they've already opened the door to a "whataboutist" line of argumentation, and therefore, they have no leg to stand on in criticizing it.

Worse still, the person complaining about whataboutism could be making a tacit admission that they have no consistent set of moral principles and are disingenuously using a moral judgment as a propaganda ploy to influence others. It's mainly designed to appeal to people's emotions anyway.

It may be useful from the standpoint of riling up public opinion and perhaps coming up with a pretext for war or some other hostile action against a country.

That's why politicians and governments do it, but in reading the criticisms of whataboutism as a "logical fallacy," I find myself wondering why anyone believes that an accusation or moral judgment is worthy of any kind of "logical" response to begin with. It's a rhetorical ploy, and whataboutism is merely a reflective demonstration of the process in action.

This is not so much a defense of whataboutism as much as it's an attack on the kinds of statements which usually invite whataboutism as a response.

To address some of the criticisms of whataboutism, the byline of the Merriam-Webster article (linked above) asks: "If everyone is guilty of something, is no one guilty of anything?"

I would answer that by asking another question: Why is so godawful bloody important to find someone "guilty" of something in the first place? Unless you're in an actual court of law bringing formal charges against someone, what is the point? If it's in the context of public policy or foreign policy, can't we just approach the matter from the standpoint of our practical and logical national interests? Are moral judgments even necessary in the context of geopolitics, or is it just so much bunkum for the masses and not to be taken seriously?

Is this like you/they did it so I/we can do it? That doesn't solve anything. Never has, never will.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a side effect of our society. The way frame our thoughts and actions, seems built upon a guilt/blame framework.

When someone does something wrong or illegal, we immediately flock to a punishment mindset. If we spent more time discerning the Why behind the crime, and how to address it, I think the less we'd focus on Guilt and Blame, and the more we would move forward as a more positive society.

Well said. Either we can cry over spilled milk, or we can try to find positive and progressive ways of preventing milk from being spilled in the future.

Is this like you/they did it so I/we can do it? That doesn't solve anything. Never has, never will.

No, it's not really a question of what anyone "can" or "can't" do.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Well said. Either we can cry over spilled milk, or we can try to find positive and progressive ways of preventing milk from being spilled in the future.



No, it's not really a question of what anyone "can" or "can't" do.

"No, it's not really a question of what anyone "can" or "can't" do."

Then is it the why?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think there are some cases where this is a valid response. For example we saw many trump supporters insisting Clinton wasn't fit to be president because of the email scandal. Yes, it was her server. Yes, it was legal for her to remove her personal emails at the time she did that, it isn't legal now. It was an error of judgment that she used a private server, but not corruption.

Since the argument is about corruption as a core issue of who is fit to be president I think it fair and appropriate to bring up who trump is as a counter argument, and this would be to expose the person of having no actual standard for coruption to decide a president's fitness, but also expose how trump is truly not fit for the office.

That said I think this approach is only appropriate IF there is a multi-option comparison being made in an argument. This would include an implied "other parties" as introduced when the issue is among ethical presidential candidates.

If it is a general discussion of how Republicans are more divisive and use more extreme rhetoric, whataboutism wouldn't fly.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I think there are some cases where this is a valid response. For example we saw many trump supporters insisting Clinton wasn't fit to be president because of the email scandal. Yes, it was her server. Yes, it was legal for her to remove her personal emails at the time she did that, it isn't legal now. It was an error of judgment that she used a private server, but not corruption.

Since the argument is about corruption as a core issue of who is fit to be president I think it fair and appropriate to bring up who trump is as a counter argument, and this would be to expose the person of having no actual standard for coruption to decide a president's fitness, but also expose how trump is truly not fit for the office.

That said I think this approach is only appropriate IF there is a multi-option comparison being made in an argument. This would include an implied "other parties" as introduced when the issue is among ethical presidential candidates.

If it is a general discussion of how Republicans are more divisive and use more extreme rhetoric, whataboutism wouldn't fly.

"it was legal for her to remove her personal emails at the time she did that, it isn't legal now"

Link supporting that if you may.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's a side effect of our society. The way frame our thoughts and actions, seems built upon a guilt/blame framework.

When someone does something wrong or illegal, we immediately flock to a punishment mindset. If we spent more time discerning the Why behind the crime, and how to address it, I think the less we'd focus on Guilt and Blame, and the more we would move forward as a more positive society.
I think this can also be that many of us have a confused set of ethics and morals and we can feel good when there is a hard example of someone doing bad, and we can compare and judge ourselves in a more positive way by "not being them". Someone shoots up a school? That aint me, Im a good guy. Someone defrauds others in business? That aint me, I'm better than that. Someone cheats on his wife? Well, I need to go and check if I set the F1 practice recording tomorrow morning.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
"it was legal for her to remove her personal emails at the time she did that, it isn't legal now"

Link supporting that if you may.
This is a recap:

Why the FBI concluded Hillary Clinton's email practices did not rise to the level of criminal charges

See if it is in here, there's a lot. As I recall congress passed a law to make the deleting of emails from an account by an official illegal. This is off the top of my head and I remember it because it was something trump wanted Hilary to be arrested for but it wasn't illegal at the time she did it.

Hillary Clinton email controversy - Wikipedia
 

We Never Know

No Slack
This is a recap:

Why the FBI concluded Hillary Clinton's email practices did not rise to the level of criminal charges

See if it is in here, there's a lot. As I recall congress passed a law to make the deleting of emails from an account by an official illegal. This is off the top of my head and I remember it because it was something trump wanted Hilary to be arrested for but it wasn't illegal at the time she did it.

Hillary Clinton email controversy - Wikipedia

So you don't think it violated...18 U.S. Code § 1924 which was already in place?

(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
classified information of the United States” means information originated, owned, or possessed by the United States Government concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States that has been determined pursuant to law or Executive order to require protection against unauthorized disclosure in the interests of national security.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"No, it's not really a question of what anyone "can" or "can't" do."

Then is it the why?

Partly, yes. Also a matter of whose ox is gored.

Sometimes, it would just be simpler if people openly stated a belief in the principle of "my country, right or wrong." That would, at least, reduce most geopolitical positions to the bare bones of what they really are. My contention is that in today's world, people feel the need to come up with reasons on top of justifications and pretexts, rather than simply being honest and telling it like it is.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Partly, yes. Also a matter of whose ox is gored.

Sometimes, it would just be simpler if people openly stated a belief in the principle of "my country, right or wrong." That would, at least, reduce most geopolitical positions to the bare bones of what they really are. My contention is that in today's world, people feel the need to come up with reasons on top of justifications and pretexts, rather than simply being honest and telling it like it is.

So is it a matter of its them, not me?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So you don't think it violated...18 U.S. Code § 1924 which was already in place?

(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
classified information of the United States” means information originated, owned, or possessed by the United States Government concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States that has been determined pursuant to law or Executive order to require protection against unauthorized disclosure in the interests of national security.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
LOL, like what trump did with all those boxes he deliberately took to Mara Lago. Waiting for that indictment.(This sentence for illustration purposes only)

Hilary defended herself by asserting she sent classified material unintentionally which was accepted as i recall. In a crime there has to be intent and deliberate acts, she made mistakes. This is why she wasn't indicted.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It's a side effect of our society. The way frame our thoughts and actions, seems built upon a guilt/blame framework.

When someone does something wrong or illegal, we immediately flock to a punishment mindset. If we spent more time discerning the Why behind the crime, and how to address it, I think the less we'd focus on Guilt and Blame, and the more we would move forward as a more positive society.

What is wrong to some may not be wrong to others.
Example...stealing is wrong..but if you are starving and steal an apple, is it wrong or survival?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
LOL, like what trump did with all those boxes he deliberately took to Mara Lago. Waiting for that indictment.(This sentence for illustration purposes only)

Hilary defended herself by asserting she sent classified material unintentionally which was accepted as i recall. In a crime there has to be intent and deliberate acts, she made mistakes. This is why she wasn't indicted.

Yes lol lol lol. You immediatley go to Trump as a deflection. .
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes lol lol lol. You immediatley go to Trump as a deflection. .
1. you ignored my disclaimer. 2. it suggests people in positions of power get away with crimes.

Of course, the trump example is a deliberate case, and the Clinton case is accidental.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
LOL, like what trump did with all those boxes he deliberately took to Mara Lago. Waiting for that indictment.(This sentence for illustration purposes only)

Hilary defended herself by asserting she sent classified material unintentionally which was accepted as i recall. In a crime there has to be intent and deliberate acts, she made mistakes. This is why she wasn't indicted.

I see you as part of them problem. No matter what your party does, right or wrong, you defend it by going on about the other party as a comparison.

The other party does the same thing.

When you try to justify or excuse one because the other did it, it doesn't make a right.

Thats why it will never get better.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I see you as part of them problem. No matter what your party does, right or wrong, you defend it by going on about the other party as a comparison.

The other party does the same thing.

Thats why it will never get better.
Talk about deflection, or is it evasion? Don't complain, argue the issue. Am I wrong in what I stated? There's tons of press about Hilary's emails. FBI involvement. DOJ involvement. The Times article explains why the FBI didn't charge her. trump taking boxes of classified material to Mara Lago? Hardly a mention in the press.

This isn't deflection. This is an opportunity to discuss if there is bias in media, society, and politics against Hilary and more leeway for trump, despite his pattern of excessive corruption.
 
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