Whats more important, religion or people?

[firedragon]

*sigh* I have been preaching that *some* religions cause murder.

Thats not what you said.

Sure there are but I'm not one of them, because I demonstrated a causal link between a religious belief and the action of murder.

Also I'm not sure what you mean when you say atheism is a tool.

In my opinion.

Nevermind. If you are retracting and correcting your assertion. No problem. So you think some religions cause murder.

And you claim that you have proven the causal link.

But you have not proven anything. So far, all you have done is preach that as you claim now "some religions" cause murder. That's your faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMHO, Many religions are more than that. They are about their particular brand of God, prophets, sons of God, messengers, manifestations and Mahdis.Surely, a change is required, and not a repetition, IMHO.

Men are capable of many deceptions, all in the name of God, or no God's involved but pure self.

The deceptions are that which is repeated, as I see religion is made new and is a breath of clear pure air.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought that values/virtues toward others and self are more important than people especially if people decide to be evil/wicked/criminal. Other then that people are more important than any religion. People are very important in many ways. When they excel in values/virtues they become more important. I've met too many rottens to ever think that people are all important; just extremely important. They can be extremely important in both positive and negative ways.

I would say both because religion is comprised or teachings that help people acquire values/virtues which help others and self. That just reminded me of a quote I want to share.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)

Lights of Guidance (second part):A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Truth in love]

Whats more important, religion or people?

If people are more important (which I personally assert that they are) then it is only logical that an empath should feel more empathy for the victims of religion (such as the LGBT community) than for the people who have their religions critiqued.

But if you feel that religions are important more than people are feel free to justify your position to do so (no I'm not forcing you to justify your position by asking you to).

In my opinion.

People matter more, however the broad brush strokes of blame here are unjustified.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whats more important, religion or people?

If people are more important (which I personally assert that they are) then it is only logical that an empath should feel more empathy for the victims of religion (such as the LGBT community) than for the people who have their religions critiqued.

But if you feel that religions are important more than people are feel free to justify your position to do so (no I'm not forcing you to justify your position by asking you to).

In my opinion.

I think both religion and people are important. The primary purpose of religion is for people so they can acquire a good character. Well, you already know the Baha'i drill.

“The third Taráz concerneth good character. A good character is, verily, the best mantle for men from God. With it He adorneth the temples of His loved ones. By My life! The light of a good character surpasseth the light of the sun and the radiance thereof.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

 

[osgart]

I would say both because religion is comprised or teachings that help people acquire values/virtues which help others and self. That just reminded me of a quote I want to share.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)

Lights of Guidance (second part):A Bahá'í Reference File

That's kinda how I view my religion; it lifts me out of of the muck of everyday life. It gives me an aim for the highest good beyond my current plight. It gives me vision, and brings me strength.

 

[firedragon]

IMHO, Many religions are more than that. They are about their particular brand of God, prophets, sons of God, messengers, manifestations and Mahdis.

Just like your brand of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's kinda how I view my religion; it lifts me out of of the muck of everyday life. It gives me an aim for the highest good beyond my current plight. It gives me vision, and brings me strength.

I think that is what religion should do, lift us up to a higher level.

 

[osgart]

I think that is what religion should do, lift us up to a higher level.

Yeah it's about seeing the light and awaking from the dark. That there is a real light worth seeing. There's a glorious ideal to life. I contrast that to the reality of being human in this place. If I can bring light to just one life I've done a great good.

 

[danieldemol]

We can also speak of the VICTIMS OF A POST RELIOUS SOCIETY as well.
In 1900 there was great optimism in Europe - the end of monarchy and religion, and the rise of a rational and enlightened world.
About quarter of a billion people died in secular wars, re-education camps, pogroms, final solutions, cultural revolutions and concentration camps.

And yet there are peaceful stable secular countries without all that, which i think highlights that we should be judging individual religions and philosophies by their fruits rather than making overly broad categories for the purpose of demonisation.

But it still is more important to place the victims above the religions/ideologies involved.

In my opinion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just like your brand of God.

I have no God. I am a strong atheist. Sure, other Hindus have their Gods and Goddesses.

".. we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

We can do that even without a God and a prophet - and manytimes cannot do it even with a God and a prophet. That is the tragedy of human life.

 

[PruePhillip]

And yet there are peaceful stable secular countries without all that, which i think highlights that we should be judging individual religions and philosophies by their fruits rather than making overly broad categories for the purpose of demonisation.

But it still is more important to place the victims above the religions/ideologies involved.

In my opinion.

So there's a million victims of the Roman Catholic Inquistion over 600 years in Europe.
Who do we 'blame' ?
Roman Catholicism?
Christianity?

 

[danieldemol]

People matter more, however the broad brush strokes of blame here are unjustified.

What language in particular do you feel is painting "broad brush strokes of blame"?

 

[firedragon]

I have no God. I am a strong atheist.

That shows how poor your understanding theism is.

 

[danieldemol]

So there's a million victims of the Roman Catholic Inquistion over 600 years in Europe.
Who do we 'blame' ?
Roman Catholicism?
Christianity?

I dont recall blaming anyone for the Inquisition, but without knowing a great deal about it I would probably tentatively look into a complex subset of Christian beliefs such as the belief there is only one path to salvation combined with the view that God needs its followers to defend it/ its religion millitantly. This probably covers more sects than just the one's that had the power to persecute heretics though.

In my opinion.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You seem confused, I'm not an anti-religion in general preacher and I'm only saying some religions cause murder, which is obviously true.

In my opinion.

I’m not sure it’s obvious at all, that religions cause murder. The only thing we can say with any degree of certainty, is that people commit murder. The cause is seldom straightforward. We can say with confidence that human beings have a capacity for violence that appears to be a part of our nature. Do not most religions attempt to mitigate against the worst of our nature and in favour of the best?

 

[danieldemol]

I’m not sure it’s obvious at all, that religions cause murder. The only thing we can say with any degree of certainty, is that people commit murder. The cause is seldom straightforward. We can say with confidence that human beings have a capacity for violence that appears to be a part of our nature. Do not most religions attempt to mitigate against the worst of our nature and in favour of the best?

I would probably be comfortable to say that most religions attempt to mitigate against the worst of our nature to the extent it is aligned with their dogmas to do so. But there are certainly some religions that cause murder. I'm sure we are all aware of the aztec culture's religion involving child sacrifice. Many people are probably less aware that there are sects which teach it is required to kill apostates. There may not be many but I did say *some* religions cause murder, not *many/most* religions.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

And yet there are peaceful stable secular countries without all that, which i think highlights that we should be judging individual religions and philosophies by their fruits rather than making overly broad categories for the purpose of demonisation.

So judge atheism by their fruits. 15 million murders in one country. Like you make absurd arbitrary criterions, let's all do that. Lets make racist criterions and make the white skin evil because they went out, stole people to come and work for free in the modern era. Let's judge everything by the fruits. Democracy is evil and deadly because the kings of democracy have bombed 30 or 40 countries in the last 50 years and murdered millions and millions of innocent people and hypocrites deny.

You have not studied anything in depth have you though you are trying your levels best to demonise billions and their religions?

 

[danieldemol]

So judge atheism by their fruits. 15 million murders in one country. Like you make absurd arbitrary criterions, let's all do that. Lets make racist criterions and make the white skin evil because they went out, stole people to come and work for free in the modern era. Let's judge everything by the fruits. Democracy is evil and deadly because the kings of democracy have bombed 30 or 40 countries in the last 50 years and murdered millions and millions of innocent people and hypocrites deny.

You have not studied anything in depth have you though you are trying your levels best to demonise billions and their religions?

I must say I'll never get your obsession with demonising atheists.

The war on communism certainly killed lots, as did paranoia about WMDs in Iraq, and perhaps it is a fault of democracy that if you can mobilise the masses behind some false fear you will gain popular support for violence. But it seems harder to me to gain popular support amongst masses for invasion than it does the support of a single dictator.

Who said I am trying to demonise billions? I am singling out those who believe in death for apostates, and a mention was also made of human sacrifice of the aztecs, no mention was made by me of billions and their religions.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Honestly the dishonesty of certain of my fellow theists towards their atheist brothers and sisters in the human family is truly a source of regret to me as a monotheist.