Whats more important, religion or people?

[danieldemol]

"victims of religion"

This is very broad. Now victims of catholic priest child sex abuse is pretty precise. There are thousands of religions a great many do hold to there being a God or gods and notions of right and wrong. Little else is the same. Even within Christianity not much more is agreed on across the entire board.

Well I needed a way of referring to all the victims.

If I had said all victims of Catholicism then for example what about the victims of Mormon sexual abuse or Jehovah's witness sexual abuse just to give an example?
Mormon abuse cases - Wikipedia
Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia

So how would you have referred to victims of a number of religions in a way that covered them all (ie all victims not all religions)?

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

The Qur'an asks the rhetorical question, "Who does more wrong than one who invents a lie concerning God?" That quote led a Vancouver imam to state that wishing Christians a merry Christmas is a worst sin than murder. Pretty hard to believe, but there it is.

Do you have an article or something showing the Vancouver Imam saying that wishing merry christmas is worse than murder?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah it's about seeing the light and awaking from the dark. That there is a real light worth seeing. There's a glorious ideal to life. I contrast that to the reality of being human in this place. If I can bring light to just one life I've done a great good.

I feel exactly the same way and it is a Baha'i teaching. We have to live for the spiritual life because this physical life is so difficult, at least for some of us.

I am presently focused on caring for my husband so I am in and out of RF. I had to take him to the hospital for a blood transfusion today in preparation for a surgery next week and I stayed for four hours and then left to come home and get caught up on posts. It is always nice to see you here, it brightens up my very difficult life

 

[osgart]

I feel exactly the same way and it is a Baha'i teaching. We have to live for the spiritual life because this physical life is so difficult, at least for some of us.

I am presently focused on caring for my husband so I am in and out of RF. I had to take him to the hospital for a blood transfusion today in preparation for a surgery next week and I stayed for four hours and then left to come home and get caught up on posts. It is always nice to see you here, it brightens up my very difficult life

Thanks Trailblazer! I appreciate your optimism, and inspiration. I hope your husband comes through okay, and will do well and fine.

I used to take care of my quadriplegic brother years ago, but he's in a nursing home now.

 

[PruePhillip]

I was referring to your accusation against Catholics, which is true, but not mentioning Protestants that did much the same as well as Orthodox.

And they did those things, often in cruelty, because they did not understand their own scriptures. Nor were they will to follow the example of the Messiah they claimed to believe in.

 

[danieldemol]

Do you have an article or something showing the Vancouver Imam saying that wishing merry christmas is worse than murder?

@stevecanuck never mind, I found an article about it here: Canadian imam: Saying ‘Merry Christmas’ is worse than murder

 

[firedragon]

When you said to judge atheism by the fruits of 15 million murders I thought you were trying to say we should judge atheism as being at fault for 15 million murders. But if thats not what you meant no problem. If thats the case I apologise.

As I said, I am not that stupid to make that kind of ignorant claim.

As I explained in post #43 it would be unethical to run an experiment to obtain the figures

It's not unethical to do experiments or market/social studies to obtain figures. It's unethical to turn billions of people into murderers by faith with no study at all.

You were talking about wars by democracy, the war faught by the US against communism are a sub-set of that. (For example the war by the US in vietnam).

Strange that was the only take out. A little more complicated than that. Try to shed your hatred agenda aside so that you can be more objective.

I don't know which wars had the most violent death tolls

Do a better study.

It makes no sense to compare all categories of murder to war.

That's correct. So you should not.

 

[Truth in love]

Well I needed a way of referring to all the victims.

If I had said all victims of Catholicism then for example what about the victims of Mormon sexual abuse or Jehovah's witness sexual abuse just to give an example?
Mormon abuse cases - Wikipedia
Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia

So how would you have referred to victims of a number of religions in a way that covered them all (ie all victims not all religions)?

In my opinion.

Well first off sexual abuse is generally forbidden in those belief systems. Granted not wholly absent, but if someone goes to university and is raped are they a victim of the university or the rapist?

 

[Truth in love]

Then what’s wrong with letting people use a condom,saves peoples lives,so too can abortion,who’s to blame for them not being able to?.

I’ve never objected to people having that option. Some more strict Catholics object to them they are the only ones I’m aware of.

 

[danieldemol]

Well first off sexual abuse is generally forbidden in those belief systems. Granted not wholly absent, but if someone goes to university and is raped are they a victim of the university or the rapist?

So are you saying you were wrong to reference Catholic sexual abuse in this thread? After all sexual abuse is against the teachings of Catholicism.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

As I said, I am not that stupid to make that kind of ignorant claim.

Glad we cleared that up.

It's not unethical to do experiments or market/social studies to obtain figures.

Not even unethical to do experiments which are likely to result in murder?!

Social studies on existing populations could be done if we could find societies that were similar enough in every way that we could say that the only difference was that one society was indoctrinated to believe in murder of apostates, but I dont know of any two such societies that are similar enough in every other way.

It's unethical to turn billions of people into murderers by faith with no study at all.

It is also unethical to alledge that of a person who has clarified enough times that I AM NOT REFERRING TO BILLIONS OF PEOPLE. Hope that was clear enough for you.

Try to shed your hatred agenda aside so that you can be more objective.

Physician heal thyself

That's correct. So you should not.

Neither should you, hence we shouldn't even be discussing wars within the context of discussing whether the rate of murder of apostates due to a belief in killing apostates is likely to be statistically significant.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Not even unethical to do experiments which are likely to result in murder?!

Ah. That type of experiment. Cmon Daniel. That's a seriously childish thing to say.

This is nonsense. End.

 

[danieldemol]

Ah. That type of experiment. Cmon Daniel. That's a seriously childish thing to say.

Not in the context of an experiment were people would need be indoctrinated in killing apostates it isn't.

In my opinion

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks Trailblazer! I appreciate your optimism, and inspiration. I hope your husband comes through okay, and will do well and fine.

I used to take care of my quadriplegic brother years ago, but he's in a nursing home now.

Thanks. We will know more after the surgery as to the extent of the cancer and what the next steps are.

I don't know if I can continue taking care of him at home, not unless he starts to take care of himself. He can do it but so far he is depending upon me to do everything for him and I do not have the time and energy to continue this way. He says he is grateful but he complains and argues with me constantly. This is not the way I want to live the few remaining years of my life.

 

[firedragon]

Not in the context of an experiment were people would need be indoctrinated in killing apostates it isn't.

In my opinion

Subtly spreading more hate. Cheap. Read a little and be more savvy in your quest.

 

[danieldemol]

Subtly spreading more hate. Cheap. Read a little and be more savvy in your quest.

So ad-hominem in lieu of addressing the arguments. Looks as good as an open admission of defeat to me.

 

[firedragon]

So ad-hominem in lieu of addressing the arguments. Looks as good as an open admission of defeat to me.

Hate preachers galore. You speak of ad hominem? In a discussion you cheaply slid in your "apostate killing" just to make an ad hominem. Don;t you know what it is? Its cheap. Cheap but sly.

That's the definition of hate preaching. You have no research, nothing but hate preaching to the gallery. It's an illness.

 

[England my lionheart]

I’ve never objected to people having that option. Some more strict Catholics object to them they are the only ones I’m aware of.

The Pope does though and he’s the one that matters,people are more important than a religion.

 

[Truth in love]

So are you saying you were wrong to reference Catholic sexual abuse in this thread? After all sexual abuse is against the teachings of Catholicism.

In my opinion.

There was a serious of abusers who appear to have gotten cover form the church.

I think that there is enough evidence that the church at that time (late 90’s is when this all came out as I recall) was endangering children as they would not subject the priest to legal consequences and put them in a position to abuse again. Even in this case though I would not the the roughly one billion Catholics for the abuse only the priests and others who took part in or covered it up.


Any medium or larger group has someone doing things wrong. When the teachings and consistent behavior is good and there are a few bad actors it’s wrong to blame the group.

 

[Truth in love]

The Pope does though and he’s the one that matters,people are more important than a religion.

Many people take their orders from him.

I respect the position and think many popes have done good, but I don’t think he speaks for God. He does not set policy in my life.

A quick look around the US and it’s clear that a a great many Catholics don’t follow what he says either.