Whats more important, religion or people?

[metis]

As in 70AD? I believe Jesus died on a cross because the Pharisees felt their religious beliefs were better than God's word.

Jesus was of the Pharisee tradition, thus what we read is basically a "family argument", and they can be the worst.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

As in 70AD? I believe Jesus died on a cross because the Pharisees felt their religious beliefs were better than God's word.

The 1970's, I mean.

 

[ChristineM]

I suppose one does not consider unborn babies people but that is no surprise that is what soldiers do so they don't feel so bad about killing their enemies. My wife thought of the child within her as an alien but that didn't stop her from having children. Maybe knowing what the end result is helps.

I would not have an abortion although I should have done when i was raped, nothing to do with religious dogma, just couldn't bring myself to terminate the pregnancy. However i will support any woman who wants/needs an abortion. Their body, it is no one elses to play god with. I made my choice, they should be allowed to make theirs

 

[danieldemol]

I believe God is more important than people. When people are right with God, people are better off.

You are not answering my question.
I'm not asking if God or people are more important. I'm saying if a religion creates victims what is more important - the people (victims) or the religion?

In my opinion

 

[Viker]

You are not answering my question.
I'm not asking if God or people are more important. I'm saying if a religion creates victims what is more important - the people (victims) or the religion?

In my opinion

In that context, the people or victims are way more important. I'll go up and vote for people.

 

[BrightShadow]

Whats more important, religion or people?

If people are more important (which I personally assert that they are) then it is only logical that an empath should feel more empathy for the victims of religion (such as the LGBT community) than for the people who have their religions critiqued.

But if you feel that religions are important more than people are feel free to justify your position to do so (no I'm not forcing you to justify your position by asking you to).

In my opinion.

As far as the title of this thread is concerned - you are comparing apple to orange. You are not comparing victim to victim. You are comparing victim (people) to religion. Even if it was a fair comparison - you cannot choose one over the other without being more specific. For example rapists are people too and rape is against most religion. Who do you pick?

In your OP, however it seems that you were comparing victim of religion to people whose religion get critiqued by nonbelievers. So, in that case - it is people vs. people but still it is not a fair comparison because you already drew a conclusion that a certain group in one (people) - is victimized by the other (religion). From that notion - it is clear that you are trying to demonize all religions.

Anyhow, in your last post(#144) - it seems you are comparing victim of religion to religion again. So, which one is it?

It is not clear what you are really asking. It seems like you are quite wrongly demonizing all religions for the faults of a few false followers or for the faults of some misunderstood aspects of the religion. Do you believe all teachings and all followers of a said religion evil?

No religion can spread among righteous people if it was about killing or victimizing other people. What is the selling point in that? Join us and lets go and kill or torture people? Who will buy into that?
If you research the history you may notice - many self proclaimed followers (in leadership positions) of some prominent religions have influenced and changed things from their primary doctrines to suit their personal agendas and as a butterfly effect many of these things may have caused - some false believers to commit acts of horrifying atrocity. Blame the people - blame their ignorance - do not blame the religion!

It is human tendency to try and incorporate personal beliefs into their religion and it can happen in wider scale as well. Many things sneaked in certain religions due to cultural diffusions. It is easier for a dictator to implement his agendas on his citizens. So, many may have used corrupted versions of interpretation to suit their needs.
Once the religion loses its true face - it is hard for critics/skeptics to separate its false believers from its true teachings because most critics and skeptics also have agendas. IMO. They are the same breed of people as the false believers. IMO

So, when two separate groups of ignorant people (false religious and their deluded critics) begin fighting over issues - as a result you will have victims! But - its not the religion's fault! IMO

A smart person won't believe a believer's point of view of any said religion until investigating it further himself. Not all believers know what they are talking about. Until you find evidence of teachings in their primary doctrine that really preaches followers to take law in their own hands and take action against any group of people - you should not blame the religion. You should blame the people!

If there is a supreme entity (God) out there who created us - then he has a right to tell us what is a right path and what is a wrong path. He has a right to give us directives. However, I am pretty sure most famous religious doctrines do not ask us to take matter in our own hands and start punishing people. That right is reserved for God. IMO
So, your comparison should be victim vs. victim. IMO. Also it would be better if you point out which religion is in question.

 

[danieldemol]

As far as the title of this thread is concerned - you are comparing apple to orange.

Definition of "compare" taken from Oxford languages;
compare
verb

1. 1.
   estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between.
   "individual schools compared their facilities with those of others in the area".

As you can see I was not noting the similarities or dissimilarity between religions and victims, so I was not making a comparison. What I was asking was where a religion creates a victim which should we prioritise - the religion in question or the victim?

...From that notion - it is clear that you are trying to demonize all religions.

Anyhow, in your last post(#144) - it seems you are comparing victim of religion to religion again. So, which one is it?

If you read through posts 1 to 144 and still think I am trying to demonise all religions after all my repeated clarifications that I am not reffering to all religions you have reading comprehension issues at best.

Do you believe all teachings and all followers of a said religion evil?

No

No religion can spread among righteous people if it was about killing or victimizing other people. What is the selling point in that? Join us and lets go and kill or torture people? Who will buy into that?

Here you are making the assumption that the people the religion initially spread amongst were virtuous by todays standards *and* ignoring that people can be indoctrinated into things from birth they wouldn't normally be accepting of if one were to attempt to persuade them as adults once they had been trained in critical thinking.

If you research the history you may notice - many self proclaimed followers (in leadership positions) of some prominent religions have influenced and changed things from their primary doctrines to suit their personal agendas and as a butterfly effect many of these things may have caused - some false believers to commit acts of horrifying atrocity.

So called prophets are self proclaimed leaders some of whom have taken pre-existing beliefs and modified them to suit personal agendas as well.

A smart person won't believe a believer's point of view of any said religion until investigating it further himself. Not all believers know what they are talking about. Until you find evidence of teachings in their primary doctrine that really preaches followers to take law in their own hands and take action against any group of people - you should not blame the religion. You should blame the people!

Has it occurred to you that it is not only when believers are instructed to take the law in their own hands that a religion is unjust, rather it is also unjust when a religion contains unjust laws regardless of whether it insists they are to be carried out by the state or by the individual or even by an unjust deity?

If there is a supreme entity (God) out there who created us - then he has a right to tell us what is a right path and what is a wrong path.

Not only is that a big *if*, creating a person does *not* give you the right to set them on an abusive path. In my society we consider it criminal for parents (creators of children) to abuse their creations (children) and the same should apply for a deity.

Then there is the fact that having a right doesn't grant that one necessarily has a desire to excercise that right. For example in my society i have the right to engage in consensual sex with another adult male but no desire to exercise that right. So too a deity having the right to tell us the correct path (which you have not established) does not demonstrate that the God in question desires to fulfilll that so called right. There could be a God that created us then had no desire to be further involved telling us right from wrong.

Also it would be better if you point out which religion is in question.

I disagree, if you name the sects by name charlattans can either rename an existing sect or create a new one that is the same/similar to the old one and then say, "that doesn't apply to us". But if you establish a guiding principle then it will cover any sect where the shoe fits. Thus not naming the particular religions seems far superior in this instance.

In my opinion

 

[BrightShadow]

What I was asking was where a religion creates a victim which should we prioritise - the religion in question or the victim?

First of all - religion doesn't create victims - bad people victimize people and it can happen even without the use of any religion.
In either case, why favor one over the other? Why not stop the insults & attacks on both? Why not try and find common ground and try to coexist?

When a bunch of people live in a common society - there will always be differences in the way we think - some difference can be big and while others minor. Best advice would be to find a way to coexist! Don't build a gay bar next to a church and don't build a church next to a gay bar! Don't try to advance your agenda via propaganda. Learn to yield to the rulings of popular votes and find a way to abide by them or at least learn to live with it. When 90 people want something in one way - the remaining 10 need to respect that - otherwise find a place where the 10 are 90. Then you can have your way!

By special pleading in favor of your (so-called) victims - by default you are undermining all religion in general!
Instead of telling everyone to take a side (between religion and people) - you can tell people to research, learn and educate each other - and find out the right path - without resorting to insults or attacks. If you think abortion is the right path then check and see if majority is with you before opening abortion clinics in every corner. If you feel LGBT is the right path then find out how many people are with you before investing everything you have into promoting it. If you feel suicide is an acceptable stance - then stop and find out how many people agree with you before trying to pass a resolution in favor of it. If you think rape is an acceptable behavior then stop and find out how many people think you are wrong before defending rapists. And so on... Every act that is discouraged - has a bad side that may not be apparent to you. It may interfere with God's plan somehow.

Stop the propaganda and let the nature take its course! If majority think something is acceptable then it will be adopted (eventually).
When you try to promote something that majority is against - you will find resistance. When you try really hard and the problem becomes bigger for the majority - then the majority will rise up.
You can try but you cannot change the mind of the majority in many cases - because I believe, we are born with a moral compass. Just because your compass is telling you abortion is acceptable - doesn't mean the majority would see it that way. But if they do - then you won't experience the resistance that you are experiencing now.

Here you are making the assumption that the people the religion initially spread amongst were virtuous by todays standards *and* ignoring that people can be indoctrinated into things from birth they wouldn't normally be accepting of if one were to attempt to persuade them as adults once they had been trained in critical thinking.

You said religion is victimizing a certain group! All I tried to say is - billions of people won't adhere to a certain religion if they thought they need to take law in their own hands and start victimizing people and attack people. So, we shouldn't blame the religion. We should put the blame where it belongs!

So called prophets are self proclaimed leaders some of whom have taken pre-existing beliefs and modified them to suit personal agendas as well.

Of course they are many false prophets and leaders. Intentionally or unintentionally they corrupted their religion. But truth stands out from falsehood! It is not hard to see through the innovations.

Has it occurred to you that it is not only when believers are instructed to take the law in their own hands that a religion is unjust, rather it is also unjust when a religion contains unjust laws regardless of whether it insists they are to be carried out by the state or by the individual or even by an unjust deity?

Chances are - you are talking about something that has been innovated at a later stage. While taking any religion under consideration - it is better to only consider the primary doctrine of that religion and disregard everything else that contradicts with it. If it contradicts or doesn't add up to the theme of the primary doctrine - then obviously it is fabricated.

Not only is that a big *if*, creating a person does *not* give you the right to set them on an abusive path. In my society we consider it criminal for parents (creators of children) to abuse their creations (children) and the same should apply for a deity.

Then there is the fact that having a right doesn't grant that one necessarily has a desire to excercise that right. For example in my society i have the right to engage in consensual sex with another adult male but no desire to exercise that right. So too a deity having the right to tell us the correct path (which you have not established) does not demonstrate that the God in question desires to fulfilll that so called right. There could be a God that created us then had no desire to be further involved telling us right from wrong.

This post is becoming too long but in short all I can say is - everything has an explanation. My position is - I don't believe we deserve any doctrine from God or any guidance really because I believe we are rejects from God's kingdom. I believe we were already there in our soul form and we have somehow managed to insult God while there in our soul form. Maybe the angels got upset at our behavior and requested God to expunge us. But God decided to deal with us in a different way! I believe God decided to show to the Angels that some of us can still be salvaged.
Now via this new beginning (in a body to restrict us and challenge us) and in a world with so much danger - we are given a 2nd chance to prove our worthiness. God occasionally sent us some messengers to give us some basic information that may help some of us - find our path back to salvation and by following that path it could help us redeem ourselves. I don't believe Jesus erased any of our original sin. We are all on our own and we have to prove ourselves! IMO
I am confident that - here we are required to believe in God's total authority over everything just by witnessing the wonders of his creation. I believe God wanted to show his angels that some of us are still capable to lead a righteous life and not all are lost cause! IMO
If you take into consideration that we are rejects - then it might make sense why God allowed information he provided to get corrupted over the centuries. Anyhow, certain things are easy to figure out because multiple religious doctrines mention it. I also believe, we are born with moral compass but we do let ourselves influenced.
In the end - we all will find out - where our compass guided us. I also believe - truth is scattered among multiple religions. So, we should check all that is out there to the best of our ability.

Thus not naming the particular religions seems far superior in this instance.

What instance? Are you only talking about religions' stance against LGBT practices? Or are you also talking about every kind of people who commit acts that are discouraged or forbidden in religions? Many acts are condemned - which ones are you talking about? Of course some act may seem innocent but you have to try and see from God's prospective to understand what is immoral about it. IMO

 

[danieldemol]

First of all - religion doesn't create victims

Some religious sects do create victims. For example some sects try to prevent monogamous gay folk from getting married. If the government denied you the right to marry as a heterosexual person you would soon cry discrimination yet you appear to consider religions that opposed the marriage of gay people as ok.

In either case, why favor one over the other?

Because where *a* religion creates a victim we are forced to prioritise between the two.

Why not try and find common ground and try to coexist?

....Don't build a gay bar next to a church and don't build a church next to a gay bar!

You have an unusual definition of co-exist if you think there is any reason a church and a gay bar can't be built and co-exist side by side.

Don't try to advance your agenda via propaganda.

Ad-hominem is against forum rules for your information.

Learn to yield to the rulings of popular votes and find a way to abide by them or at least learn to live with it. When 90 people want something in one way - the remaining 10 need to respect that - otherwise find a place where the 10 are 90. Then you can have your way!

You are making a strawman, I have not proposed doing anything undemocratic to change the rules.

Only peacefully convincing people to drop this indoctrinated victim creating bias against LGBT folk. The same had to be done when the majority of folk considered coloured folk to be worthy of oppression but I dont hear you complaining about that.

By special pleading in favor of your (so-called) victims

You are simply alleging special pleading without substantiating your claim.

- by default you are undermining all religion in general!

No im not, I have repeatedly pointed out that I'm not reffering to all religion in general. You are making an allegation here but failing to substantiate it. Is making unsubstantiated allegations part of your religion?

Instead of telling everyone to take a side (between religion and people) - you can tell people to research, learn and educate each other - and find out the right path - without resorting to insults or attacks.

If I told religious people to research, learn and educate each other about the need for LGBT rights they would feel attacked and insulted. Its a shame that you can't see that cries of "insult" and "attack" are just attempts at obstructing further education and learning.

If you think rape is an acceptable behavior then stop and find out how many people think you are wrong before defending rapists.

I'm not defending rapists, and it is very telling that you appear to group LGBT folk in with criminals such as rapists.

Of course they are many false prophets and leaders. Intentionally or unintentionally they corrupted their religion.

True, Moses and Muhammad come to mind.

But truth stands out from falsehood! It is not hard to see through the innovations.

It is hard to see when you are indoctrinated from birth into the innovations.

Chances are - you are talking about something that has been innovated at a later stage. While taking any religion under consideration - it is better to only consider the primary doctrine of that religion and disregard everything else that contradicts with it. If it contradicts or doesn't add up to the theme of the primary doctrine - then obviously it is fabricated.

So the question then becomes for example are anti-LGBT teachings part of the primary doctrine of some religions? Are they a part of your religion?

What instance? Are you only talking about religions' stance against LGBT practices?

I'm talking about all the unjust laws that *some* religions have.

Of course some act may seem innocent but you have to try and see from God's prospective to understand what is immoral about it. IMO

Exactly, so go off and try to see from God's perspective why oppressing LGBT people is immoral and when you understand what is immoral about it come back to us.

In my opinion.

 

[idea]

So good to see "people" winning.

My grandmother disowned a daughter for being LGBTQ, chose religion over family. It has been years - everyone keeps waiting for grandma to relent, let her back in, join the family gatherings. All the siblings get together, support one another.

I guess you always feel closer to those with a few shared beliefs. I feel closer to those who are not affiliated with any religious groups. We're all just people, just guide conversation away from areas of disagreement to find common ground for everyone.

 

[BrightShadow]

Some religious sects do create victims. For example some sects try to prevent monogamous gay folk from getting married. If the government denied you the right to marry as a heterosexual person you would soon cry discrimination yet you appear to consider religions that opposed the marriage of gay people as ok.


Because where *a* religion creates a victim we are forced to prioritise between the two.


You have an unusual definition of co-exist if you think there is any reason a church and a gay bar can't be built and co-exist side by side.

Ad-hominem is against forum rules for your information.


You are making a strawman, I have not proposed doing anything undemocratic to change the rules.

Only peacefully convincing people to drop this indoctrinated victim creating bias against LGBT folk. The same had to be done when the majority of folk considered coloured folk to be worthy of oppression but I dont hear you complaining about that.


You are simply alleging special pleading without substantiating your claim.


No im not, I have repeatedly pointed out that I'm not reffering to all religion in general. You are making an allegation here but failing to substantiate it. Is making unsubstantiated allegations part of your religion?


If I told religious people to research, learn and educate each other about the need for LGBT rights they would feel attacked and insulted. Its a shame that you can't see that cries of "insult" and "attack" are just attempts at obstructing further education and learning.


I'm not defending rapists, and it is very telling that you appear to group LGBT folk in with criminals such as rapists.


True, Moses and Muhammad come to mind.


It is hard to see when you are indoctrinated from birth into the innovations.


So the question then becomes for example are anti-LGBT teachings part of the primary doctrine of some religions? Are they a part of your religion?


I'm talking about all the unjust laws that *some* religions have.


Exactly, so go off and try to see from God's perspective why oppressing LGBT people is immoral and when you understand what is immoral about it come back to us.

In my opinion.

If you have two group of people where one group believe in God and the other don't believe in God - you will have a difference, you will have disagreements, you will have a problem! The problem is - one group has a boss that they need to listen to and the other group doesn't have a boss.
Let's assume you work for a small company. You have a boss. Your boss puts a entryway umbrella stand and told you and your co-workers to put your umbrella (wet or dry) there when you come in to work and take it when you leave - would you question him? Would you follow his direction? On a dry day - you may find his direction absurd but you will still put your umbrella by the front door when you check in.
If you can do a simple thing like that for a human boss - why would it be difficult to do what God asked?
If you don't believe in any religion or a God then you don't have a boss. It is easy for you to keep your umbrella with you because you feel you won't face any accountability. You won't feel anyone will question you! It is not the case for people who have a boss.

Generally speaking - you can't ride a bicycle on the freeway but you are allowed on most public roads, even on the sidewalks in some states. Do the bicyclists feel they are victims? Certain rules are made in certain way by taking certain things into consideration - in this case most likely safety. When it comes to God's directives - sometimes it is easy to understand the reason behind it and sometimes it is not clear. You can't just look at innocent examples to determine reasons behind God's directive that is given in a generalization form - you have to look at the bigger picture.
Sometimes different laws are enacted for the greater good. Sometimes different laws are enacted in a generalization fashion because you can't have different laws for different scenarios. A 20 year old responsible guy cannot buy or consume alcohol but a 21 year old irresponsible adult can. The 21 year old (regardless of how irresponsible he is) won't be breaking any laws when he purchase alcohol. Similarly God has forbade or discouraged us from doing certain things - anyone finding God's directive working against their interest may think they are a victim but I won't call them victims. Just like I don't call a 20 year old responsible adult a victim when he cannot purchase alcohol.
Do cigarette smokers feel they are victims because there is a special tax on cigarettes'?
Imagine if cigarette ads weren't banned back in the 70's. Where would we be today? How many more young kids and adult would have been influenced, exposed or introduced to it by enticing ads. Similarly, streaming services such as Netflix has endlessly promoted LGBT community by portraying it in a good light in almost every TV shows & movies (IMO) for the last decade or more. Now LGBT has gained traction and it is stronger than ever before. There is a systematic approach to expose and normalize it to folks who maybe against this way of life. IMO. Wait another decade or two to see where we will be in regards to LGBT. Of course you will probably like it and won't have anymore complains or maybe you will be asking support for religion at that point!

 

[danieldemol]

Let's assume you work for a small company. You have a boss. Your boss puts a entryway umbrella stand and told you and your co-workers to put your umbrella (wet or dry) there when you come in to work and take it when you leave - would you question him?

On the dry days I sure would, being a company boss does not make him a God beyond questioning (nor is there any good argument for why deity/(s) should be beyond being questioned.

If you can do a simple thing like that for a human boss - why would it be difficult to do what God asked?

There could be a couple of reasons.
1. You might not believe it was God who asked it.
2. The request might be unjust, and we shouldn't follow unjust requests even if they come from a deity.

A 20 year old responsible guy cannot buy or consume alcohol but a 21 year old irresponsible adult can. The 21 year old (regardless of how irresponsible he is) won't be breaking any laws when he purchase alcohol.

All your analogies are irrelevant to gays being forbidden marriage. Take the bicycle example - that is for safety. But it doesn't improve the safety of gays to refuse them marriage.

Or take the alcohol example - that is because it is impractical to devise a responsibility test that can be administered to alcohol drinkers so instead we humans have to rely on statistical responsibility. But there are no statistics i know of that gays are less responsible than heterosexuals. So it is an irrelevant analogy.

Similarly God has forbade or discouraged us from doing certain things

So you assert without evidence.

anyone finding God's directive working against their interest may think they are a victim but I won't call them victims.

Great, God just said you may never eat again, just because you find God's directive acting against your own interest dont expect me to call you a victim.

In my opinion.

 

[Wandering Monk]

'Mankind was my business.' - Jacob Marley

 

[BrightShadow]

nor is there any good argument for why deity/(s) should be beyond being questioned.

In my opinion - generally speaking - Deity cannot be questioned about certain things! God made us and God can make us 'cease to exist'. (IMO). If you take God's directives lightly - I think you may find yourself in a tough position on the judgment day.
If you are ever face to face with God then you could ask questions and most likely you will get a satisfactory answer. But in our current predicament - we don't have the privilege to do that. So, what are the alternative options? Listen or ignore?
Anyhow, I am not saying that if you don't follow God's directive you are doomed for sure. Of course God can forgive anyone. It is his prerogative.
Didn't Jesus asked God to save him from crucifixion? I think even on the cross Jesus asked whether there was any other way. But he still had to go through the crucifixion. Right? Why? Because he had to prove he wasn't God! IMO. There is always a reason behind everything. Even whole group of people may not see the actual reason sometimes!
After the rumor started regarding his divinity status - Jesus' immediate disciples didn't squash it. Instead they entertained it - as a result Jesus found himself in a very tight predicament where the only way to convince people that he wasn't God or son of god - was to go through the crucifixion. IMO. Just think about it - Jesus was charged with blasphemy, claiming to be son of god and claiming to be messiah (king of Jews). If his divinity status was not entertained by his immediate disciples then there was a chance for him to come out alive and continue his work. But when you are wrongfully charged for claiming to be God or son of god - and asked to prove it by saving yourself then there isn't any other way left for you! If real creator had saved Jesus from that predicament and helped him walk out of there alive and continue his preaching then what would have that proved? All the Jews and Romans involved would also accept him as god. Real God could not let that happen! IMO. So, sometimes the real reason may not be apparent to us but when God asked something - there is always a valid reason behind it. IMO.

There could be a couple of reasons.
1. You might not believe it was God who asked it.
2. The request might be unjust, and we shouldn't follow unjust requests even if they come from a deity.

1. That's why you do your research and find out whether or not God could have asked such a thing that you are confused about.
2. I believe none of the request from God is unjust. Everything has a reason behind it. Maybe we cannot realize the reason when we look at it superficially or when we are analyzing it from one particular angle or one particular instance. If you look at it on a wider scale and take the effects it can have on a society on a longer term (centuries) and if you have all the other related data that God has - then you may think differently. In other words - you cannot say a request from God is unjust without more background knowledge about it.

All your analogies are irrelevant to gays being forbidden marriage. Take the bicycle example - that is for safety. But it doesn't improve the safety of gays to refuse them marriage.

You are analyzing from a minuscule prospective. You are wondering why two single decent men who are both contributing to the society - aren't supposed to marry each other. As far as God's directive is concerned - there could be many things in play against gay marriage. You are not analyzing where gay attraction is originating from in the first place. You are probably assuming God made them that way! Even though it may seem like they are born with such inclination - in my opinion it is almost correct but not entirely true. This inclination may seem like ours but it doesn't come from our soul. It originates from another source IMO. Information is there in religious doctrines but of course people who don't believe in religion won't consider them. Things are being told to us on a need to know basis and information is scattered among multiple religions. You can search and find it yourself if you like.
By the way, you are also not analyzing what such a practice can do on a wider scale over centuries. How it can hinder with God's plan. You have to take many things under consideration. You shouldn't just look at one seemingly harmless example. Just like the 20 year old responsible guy who cannot purchase alcohol!

Or take the alcohol example - that is because it is impractical to devise a responsibility test that can be administered to alcohol drinkers so instead we humans have to rely on statistical responsibility. But there are no statistics i know of that gays are less responsible than heterosexuals.

You don't know of any statistics but God does! IMO. Actually God knows more than statistics, God knows exactly why he discouraged homosexuality. Regardless of any and all long term implications of this on God's plan - there could be countless other phycological, physical, chemical, social, cultural negative implications that we may not even know about, but God does. Maybe this has a long term implication on our DNA coding. Maybe it works like a computer virus and does something to the hereditary factors of our DNA but maybe the effects can only be noticed after a few generations! Maybe human scientists don't have the tools to figure it out because the effects has to be watched over generations. We don't know enough about DNA. In some religion - God seems to have said - a evil deed of an individual could be punished for generations. Maybe he was talking about DNA coding and that maybe evil imprints could stay in DNA for up to 7 generations? Just a thought! There are too many things we don't know but God does!

Great, God just said you may never eat again, just because you find God's directive acting against your own interest dont expect me to call you a victim.

We test drive our products all the time. In a Car assembly Plant you may see random cars are used for vehicle safety ratings purposes. Many cars are used to evaluate crash tests, rollover tests and various other tests. If cars could speak - what would those cars say? Why me? Just because we can speak - doesn't mean we cannot be tested. If God created us - he can test some of us with more difficult tests than others. Obviously not eating is counter productive and can be consider suicide and suicide is not allowed. So, your example is easily discarded!

 

[danieldemol]

In my opinion - generally speaking - Deity cannot be questioned about certain things! God made us and God can make us 'cease to exist'. (IMO).

So you are obeying tyranny from your deity because you are afraid of non-existence? Considering you were non-existent before you were born and it didn't hurt you I don't see why you are so afraid of non-existence.

So, sometimes the real reason may not be apparent to us but when God asked something - there is always a valid reason behind it. IMO.

But if an evil spirit asks you to do something the reason for it may not be apparent to you as well, so without use of your brain you have no means to distinguish between God telling you and any old evil spirit telling you to do something. Because if an evil spirit told you to do it, you could just assume that it was the true God and that God had some uknowable reason behind it. Hence God has a responsibility to God's servants to explain the reasons behind God's directions so that they may not be misled by malicious spirits.

1. That's why you do your research and find out whether or not God could have asked such a thing that you are confused about.

No problem, I have done my research and found out a just God could not have asked such a thing as for gays to be oppressed.

You don't know of any statistics but God does! IMO. Actually God knows more than statistics, God knows exactly why he discouraged homosexuality.

You haven't proven God discouraged homosexuality yet, you have only asserted it. God disagrees with you.

We test drive our products all the time. In a Car assembly Plant you may see random cars are used for vehicle safety ratings purposes. Many cars are used to evaluate crash tests, rollover tests and various other tests. If cars could speak - what would those cars say? Why me? Just because we can speak - doesn't mean we cannot be tested. If God created us - he can test some of us with more difficult tests than others. Obviously not eating is counter productive and can be consider suicide and suicide is not allowed. So, your example is easily discarded!

To the contrary, God said suicide is allowed and only the false prophets who tell people to follow the people's interests disagree with him. Since there is an unknown reason for God asking it and God is just - off to bed without your meal you go - or would you prefer non-existence when God judges you?

In my opinion.

 

[BrightShadow]

So you are obeying tyranny from your deity because you are afraid of non-existence? Considering you were non-existent before you were born and it didn't hurt you I don't see why you are so afraid of non-existence.

Most of your post (as usual) is full of false assumptions. You begin with false premise and then end up with wrong conclusion.
Who is saying I am obeying tyranny from my deity? What is tyranny in you eyes? Your mother didn't let you eat enough candy and that was tyranny in your eyes? Now you don't want to listen to your mother regarding anything else she has to say? (Btw, not literally!)

By the way, why would I want to be non-existent? Do you?

But if an evil spirit asks you to do something the reason for it may not be apparent to you as well, so without use of your brain you have no means to distinguish between God telling you and any old evil spirit telling you to do something. Because if an evil spirit told you to do it, you could just assume that it was the true God and that God had some uknowable reason behind it. Hence God has a responsibility to God's servants to explain the reasons behind God's directions so that they may not be misled by malicious spirits.

Now I see the problem! You don't know the difference between an evil spirit and God. That is a tough position!
Of course you have to use your brain. I already said we are born with a moral compass. I believe - we don't really need religion to tell us right from wrong. However our opinion can get influenced by your upbringing, surroundings and personal experiences in life - so sometimes we need to check any guideline available just to see where we stand or how far out we may have drifted off.
In our current predicament - God is allowing malicious spirits to try and mislead us. That is the whole idea! In this tough place you have to find a way to not get influenced and stay on God's path.
By the way, which religion allows Homosexuality as an acceptable practice? If you can find one and think it is from God then follow it and be happy (for the time being). Since you obviously think other major religions are wrong regarding this particular issue.

No problem, I have done my research and found out a just God could not have asked such a thing as for gays to be oppressed.

Good for you!
So, continue your work! Cheer for the cause!

You haven't proven God discouraged homosexuality yet, you have only asserted it. God disagrees with you.

I don't think it is necessary. You can read - so just google it!

I believe God discouraged. I can see the reason clearly. I can understand how it can be against God's plan since I believe God created all souls at the same time and many still waiting to come to this world for their chance at redemption. I can see how homosexuality can be counter productive in that regard.
I have nothing against the people that belong to the LGBT community though! My barber is gay. Many people I deal with are gays. It is not the people - it is the act that I am against.
I think worshipping Jesus statue is wrong. Do I hate Christians who bow to Jesus? Absolutely not!

To the contrary, God said suicide is allowed and only the false prophets who tell people to follow the people's interests disagree with him. Since there is an unknown reason for God asking it and God is just - off to bed without your meal you go - or would you prefer non-existence when God judges you?

Okay, follow that God then......or don't!

 

[danieldemol]

Most of your post (as usual) is full of false assumptions. You begin with false premise and then end up with wrong conclusion.
Who is saying I am obeying tyranny from my deity? What is tyranny in you eyes? Your mother didn't let you eat enough candy and that was tyranny in your eyes? Now you don't want to listen to your mother regarding anything else she has to say? (Btw, not literally!)

Strawman galore. I listen to my mother.

By the way, why would I want to be non-existent? Do you?

I don't want to be nonexistent, but you know the saying, "better to die on your feet than live on your knees".

Now I see the problem! You don't know the difference between an evil spirit and God.

To the contrary, I explained the difference. God is capable of explaining God's actions, ignorant spirits aren't capable of explaining all their actions, so they have to bluff you by telling you that there is a hidden wisdom that secretly justifies their oppression.

Of course you have to use your brain. I already said we are born with a moral compass. I believe - we don't really need religion to tell us right from wrong. However our opinion can get influenced by your upbringing, surroundings and personal experiences in life - so sometimes we need to check any guideline available just to see where we stand or how far out we may have drifted off.

I diagree with the part about checking any guidline. Many of the guidelines were written by ignorant spirits who mixed their own wrong ideas in with the truth and corrupted it. Instead we should be using our brain to sift through what is true and cast aside what is merely oppression.

By the way, which religion allows Homosexuality as an acceptable practice? If you can find one and think it is from God then follow it and be happy (for the time being). Since you obviously think other major religions are wrong regarding this particular issue.

Unitarian Universalists seem pretty accepting of homosexuality. Personally I think all religions are man-made but that doesn't necessarily make them all wrong or all bad.

Good for you!
So, continue your work! Cheer for the cause!

*Cheers for marriage equality*

I don't think it is necessary. You can read - so just google it!

That's a non-answer.

I believe God discouraged. I can see the reason clearly. I can understand how it can be against God's plan since I believe God created all souls at the same time and many still waiting to come to this world for their chance at redemption. I can see how homosexuality can be counter productive in that regard.

I'm calling what I see as your bluff on that one. I think if you could see the reason you would have said it instead of just vaguely saying there must be a reason we can't understand.

I have nothing against the people that belong to the LGBT community though! My barber is gay. Many people I deal with are gays. It is not the people - it is the act that I am against.
I think worshipping Jesus statue is wrong. Do I hate Christians who bow to Jesus? Absolutely not!

Unless you would prevent people from bowing to Jesus statues if you had the numbers the two are not comparable if you would prevent LGBT folk from getting married.

In my opinion.

 

[BrightShadow]

To the contrary, I explained the difference. God is capable of explaining God's actions, ignorant spirits aren't capable of explaining all their actions, so they have to bluff you by telling you that there is a hidden wisdom that secretly justifies their oppression.

Evil spirits can actually do more meaningful harm then just bluff their way and fool you. It can influence some people to a degree that they don't even feel they are under influence. It can corrupt their thinking process and make their opinions biased. If you like your younger brother and if he is a contributing member of the society but he is gay then you could be biased! You may never believe that a sane God could possibly restrict him and as a result you could completely stop believing in God!
If religion got it right regarding adultery, pedophilia then why would it get one wrong? When it comes to guidelines and doctrines - why would evil spirit go against gays only?
As I mentioned earlier - just because you don't see a damage when you are looking at a very decent example of two contributing and responsible adults - doesn't mean there is no damage on a wider scale. When you take all bad examples into consideration and take all the examples of heteros who are tricked every now and then into submission (when they are under the influence) then you might have a data showing damage. Do you think there are victims of unwarranted experiences from this? Do you consider unwanted experiences are damaging to that victim? Do you think there is any long tern implications to our DNA from this practice? Do you think this activity could be counter productive towards God's plan somehow?
Like I said - God knows more and that's why I understand why it is discouraged!

I diagree with the part about checking any guidline. Many of the guidelines were written by ignorant spirits who mixed their own wrong ideas in with the truth and corrupted it. Instead we should be using our brain to sift through what is true and cast aside what is merely oppression.

I already said - truth is mixed with lies. Do what your brain tells you. But better hope to be right! Some people don't think about spiritual stuff - they need doctrine sometimes - while others can use their brain.
I already wrote somewhere - I believe the good and decent examples might be forgiven by God - but I don't know about the indecent ones who are practicing without commitment and the ones who are promoting!
I believe - sins will be measured in direct proportion to the damage it produces. If no damage is produced then sins will be minor. IMO

if you would prevent LGBT folk from getting married.

I am not against gay marriage. Marry away! Probably better that way as you can't call it fornication! Everyone is responsible for their own sins. Jesus didn't erase any future followers sins IMO.
I believe in a secular society but people in charge of making laws in a secular society has a right to decide what is good for the majority as long as they are not creating an inhumane and extreme condition for a minority. If I believed gays are oppressed like you do - I would also vote in favor. But I don't! I also believe it needs to be discouraged!

 

[danieldemol]

Evil spirits can actually do more meaningful harm then just bluff their way and fool you. It can influence some people to a degree that they don't even feel they are under influence. It can corrupt their thinking process and make their opinions biased.

I think some introspection is due on this point.

If religion got it right regarding adultery, pedophilia then why would it get one wrong?

Who said it got only one thing wrong? Its treatment of women and atheists doesn't seem fantastic either.

But here is a thought for you. Unitarian Universalists don't seem to believe in pedopihilia either and they accept gay marriage, so if it is not possible to be wrong on one thing how can they be different to your religion without one of the two religions being wrong on one thing?

And if it is possible for one religion to be wrong on one thing it is possible for another religion to be wrong on one thing.

As I mentioned earlier - just because you don't see a damage when you are looking at a very decent example of two contributing and responsible adults - doesn't mean there is no damage on a wider scale.

It also doesn't mean that there *is* damage on a wider scale. Which is what you are failing woefully to demonstrate.

Do you think there are victims of unwarranted experiences from this? Do you consider unwanted experiences are damaging to that victim?

Do you mean rape? Do you have any data to suggest that homosexuality causes rape?

If someone were to tell you heterosexuality causes rape it would be on them to prove it, and the same is true for homosexuality.

Do you think there is any long tern implications to our DNA from this practice?

Are we discussing rape or homosexuality?

Do you think this activity could be counter productive towards God's plan somehow?

If we are talking about homosexuality no. And you have a weak God if homosexuality can thwart it's plan somehow.

I believe - sins will be measured in direct proportion to the damage it produces. If no damage is produced then sins will be minor. IMO

If no damage is produced why would an intelligent God regard it as a sin? I think it wouldn't if this God was a clever God and not just an ignorant spirit posing as God.

I am not against gay marriage. Marry away! Probably better that way as you can't call it fornication!...

...I believe in a secular society but people in charge of making laws in a secular society has a right to decide what is good for the majority as long as they are not creating an inhumane and extreme condition for a minority. If I believed gays are oppressed like you do - I would also vote in favor. But I don't! I also believe it needs to be discouraged!

You appear to be speaking a mixed message here, you say you are not against gay marriage but it needs to be discouraged. But why do you feel the need to discourage it if you are not against it?

In my opinion.

 

[BrightShadow]

Who said it got only one thing wrong? Its treatment of women and atheists doesn't seem fantastic either.

You are mixing up religious influence with culture/ societies influence! Society and different cultures have been the culprit against women and treating them bad for centuries - not the religion! IMO It has been a male dominated world from the beginning of time. The strong always dominated the weak! It's a bully thing! Treatment of Atheists has also been an intimidating thing for some! "If you are not with us - you must be against us" - that has always been the attitude of human kind!
Many religion actually played a positive part and mitigated oppression of women and shaped it to what we have today!

But here is a thought for you. Unitarian Universalists don't seem to believe in pedopihilia either and they accept gay marriage, so if it is not possible to be wrong on one thing how can they be different to your religion without one of the two religions being wrong on one thing?

And if it is possible for one religion to be wrong on one thing it is possible for another religion to be wrong on one thing.

Trying to take the best of many religions and take out the controversial parts is a noble idea but God may not be satisfied with that line of reasoning. As I said - God has given us a moral compass and my moral compass shows me that homosexuality is counter productive towards God's plan. IMO. I also know this inclination does not initiate from our soul. It initiates from an outside source. Devil is not omni-present. So, how does he influence everyone at the same time? If you get an answer to that then you may realize where the inclination comes from. Just think about that for a second! Some thing or someone is making some of us feel that way! We are so used to the presence and influence that we don't know the difference of how it feels without the influence. IMO

However, I like it if the Unitarians Universalists are rejecting "trinity"! In that regard they are on the right path! Kudos to them!

Do you mean rape? Do you have any data to suggest that homosexuality causes rape?

If someone were to tell you heterosexuality causes rape it would be on them to prove it, and the same is true for homosexuality.

Double the exposer (to possible date rape situation) and double the crime! As this practice is getting more and more traction - more and more straight people will encounter unwarranted advances (when they are drunk or under some kind of influence). My good friend was subject to such an experience! Date rapes usually don't get reported for many reasons - embarrassment could be one of them! So, you won't have substantial data. Sometimes straight folks could have their guards down when they are with same sex individuals - especially in the case of women in a club/bar. IMO

Are we discussing rape or homosexuality?

I was addressing homosexuality there! Scientists won't have data regarding effects in DNA anytime soon because it may requires observation of a subject for his entire life and then they need to observe his offspring and their offspring for generations! Global warming and climate change controversies should make it clear - how hard it is to prove something that requires observation of long term effects (for generations).

If we are talking about homosexuality no. And you have a weak God if homosexuality can thwart it's plan somehow.

I believe - God is not always there to protect and save us while we are here on earth. This is pretty much an automated world under the supervision of devil. IMO. As I mentioned earlier - I believe we are the "rejects" from God's kingdom! We are here to prove some of us can be salvaged. I believe devil is here to entice us and try and throw us off the track from the right path. God is allowing this because we have already proven ourselves incompetent once before. IMO So, I believe God is not too worried about us. Why do you think we are sent in our physical form and not in our soul form? Everything has a reason behind it!

As I mentioned - I believe the inclination for this practice comes from an outside source. Those of us who experience this ascendancy - need to learn to overcome it somehow. Some of us struggle with many things in life (drugs, alcohol, various addictions) - why give in to this one regardless of whether or not it feels natural?

If no damage is produced why would an intelligent God regard it as a sin?

If no damage is produced then sin will be minor. But if God asked to refrain from it then why not try? If you don't believe that God asked then feel free to practice it but better hope you are right about it!

You appear to be speaking a mixed message here, you say you are not against gay marriage but it needs to be discouraged. But why do you feel the need to discourage it if you are not against it?

I believe in a secular society (especially in today's world due to the diversity). People no longer live in a close knit society! It is a ever changing and fast pace world and we have to mingle with various beliefs. So, I am not against gay marriage but I continue to hold my belief that it needs to be discouraged in some shape or form because a world where it is blooming - may not be ideal for many. Netflix is a leader in promoting this. You can't watch any movie without some component of homosexuality in it these days. Do you think all those actors are gay in private life or is it an exaggeration to the actual number? After watching movies and TV series on Netflix - it feels like - more than half the world is gay! If it is really growing in that pace then you will have all the laws in favor of it soon. So, nothing to worry!