What's purpose to lable this DIR"Evolution Vs. Creationism"

[LuisDantas]

I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

First, it's not a DIR, as DIRs are "Discuss Individual Religion," and those who are not of that religion may not comment in those threads.
As for a board about "evolution vs creationism," it's really only because some religions see it as a huge threat to their beliefs. But, interestingly, evolution fits perfectly into many other religions, especially those that have a position of and cherish all life being related and intricately woven together in this beautiful and precious tapestry of life, with the small parts making the whole and the whole making the small.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Hello everybody

I discuss this with some member, they told me theory of evolution had nothing to do with origin/start of life. it's abiogenesis.

I thought this DIR main goal is about how life appears,according to two different methods "believe in God is Creator, believe in nature is creator", yes or not ?

Since evolution had nothing to do with life appears why compare/oppose it to creation ?
So,What is the purpose of discuss evolution VS creationism ?

I'd say because the nature of the origin, and then subsequent changes in life are inseparable- certainly Darwin and Dawkins thought so- that any evolution that needs helped over the tricky parts by God- is no sort of evolution at all.

Just as the watchmaker problem, it's spontaneous self-contained operation is not the tricky part- it's the origin of the design that allows it to do so.

i.e. does the watch happen to tell the correct time- spontaneously or by design? It's both- spontaneous by design!

 

[Jumi]

So you propose theistic evolution? It's common here and used to be the norm, today the theistic position(state church attendance and membership) has been weakened by support of people like YEC.

 

[Godobeyer]

I'd say because the nature of the origin, and then subsequent changes in life are inseparable- certainly Darwin and Dawkins thought so- that any evolution that needs helped over the tricky parts by God- is no sort of evolution at all.

Just as the watchmaker problem, it's spontaneous self-contained operation is not the tricky part- it's the origin of the design that allows it to do so.

i.e. does the watch happen to tell the correct time- spontaneously or by design? It's both- spontaneous by design!

For my information Darwin never said evolution is origin of life.

Plus evolution is not about the origin of life (how life started).

Does evolution explain the origin of life ?
I don't think so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd say because the nature of the origin, and then subsequent changes in life are inseparable- certainly Darwin and Dawkins thought so

Neither Darwin or Dawkins have claimed to know the origin of life. Science doesn't either. I even just read an article on BBC the other day about the history of our search for answers to a question that is currently unanswered. We have thousands of religious stories, and most of them are easily dismissed once we consider just a few basic facts, with the idea of a "personal deity" being excluded entirely once you consider not just the Earth, but the Universe itself.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

For my information Darwin never said evolution is origin of life.

Plus evolution is not about the origin of life (how life started).

Does evolution explain the origin of life ?
I don't think so.

It gets into semantics, but similarly the operation of a watch does not explain it's creation, that doesn't mean they are not inseparable.

I take your point though, technically 'evolution' doesn't speak to the origin of life, but in practice of course, most evolutionists assume the origin to be also 'naturalistic' as anything else would defeat the purpose of the theory

so maybe naturalism v creationism would be more accurate?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Neither Darwin or Dawkins have claimed to know the origin of life. Science doesn't either. I even just read an article on BBC the other day about the history of our search for answers to a question that is currently unanswered. We have thousands of religious stories, and most of them are easily dismissed once we consider just a few basic facts, with the idea of a "personal deity" being excluded entirely once you consider not just the Earth, but the Universe itself.

"... We know the sort of event that must have happened for the origin of life." He claims this much! He claims to somehow 'know' that it was ultimately accidental, not design.

We had countless atheist creation stories; static, eternal, steady state, big crunch, etc which were dismissed by scientific evidence.
Credit where it is due, Genesis still holds up where these stories failed

Not to drift off topic, but why do you think the universe excludes a personal deity?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We had countless atheist creation stories; static, eternal, steady state, big crunch, etc which were dismissed by scientific evidence.

Steady State? Big Crunch? Most of those don't even have anything to do with the origin of the universe, except for the one that claims it has been here eternally, which isn't the Christian position nor is it favored heavily in science. And the Big Crunch? That has to do with how the universe may end, not how it began. And the origins of the universe is not the same thing as the origin of life on Earth, much like how the Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life on Earth.

Not to drift off topic, but why do you think the universe excludes a personal deity?

Because we are less than a grain of sand of a million desert planets. We live on a moss covered speck of iron, and much like the Universe out there, on our piece of iron life is chaotic and dangerous. We are privileged enough to be the apex of the food chain that we don't have to really worry about being eaten alive by predators. Instead, we try to attribute the struggles we have that our privileged position has brought us, we try to attribute these things to gods and spirits, but much like black holes and meteors that can wipe out planets without any real reason or purpose, life makes sense and there are no questions of mysterious wills when you realize bad things don't happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, life happens to people. We have many advantages over other animals, but we are still helpless against Nature. And if appeals to god worked, we'd have global peace and harmony by now.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Steady State? Big Crunch? Most of those don't even have anything to do with the origin of the universe, except for the one that claims it has been here eternally, which isn't the Christian position nor is it favored heavily in science. And the Big Crunch? That has to do with how the universe may end, not how it began. And the origins of the universe is not the same thing as the origin of life on Earth, much like how the Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life on Earth.

Big Crunch was proposed as a cyclical system whereby the universe would self replicate through a repetition of expansion and collapse- making God redundant (in Hawking's words) This was pretty firmly debunked- but of course the opposite implication about God never applies!

Because we are less than a grain of sand of a million desert planets. We live on a moss covered speck of iron, and much like the Universe out there, on our piece of iron life is chaotic and dangerous. We are privileged enough to be the apex of the food chain that we don't have to really worry about being eaten alive by predators. Instead, we try to attribute the struggles we have that our privileged position has brought us, we try to attribute these things to gods and spirits, but much like black holes and meteors that can wipe out planets without any real reason or purpose, life makes sense and there are no questions of mysterious wills when you realize bad things don't happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, life happens to people. We have many advantages over other animals, but we are still helpless against Nature. And if appeals to god worked, we'd have global peace and harmony by now.

So the more we learn, the more special we realize the Earth and humanity is. Had the galaxy turned out to be teaming with ETs all thinking themselves special... I'd take your point, I'd accept the implication, that the universe was probably not created primarily for our personal benefit.

But I'm also willing to accept the opposite implication, that of observed reality- As far as we know, we are the only means by which the universe can contemplate it's own existence, appreciate itself from within. That seems very much consistent with our being the primary intended beneficiaries of creation- does it not?

God created a world with no fear, pain, hate, grief, no challenges of any kind, which still exists today- for Jellyfish. And hence no joy, love, growth, understanding either, would you trade?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Had the galaxy turned out to be teaming with ETs all thinking themselves special.

We don't know if it is or not. And it seems very unlikely that we are alone. I would be far more surprised to learn we are alone than if there are billions of inhabited planets.

So the more we learn, the more special we realize the Earth and humanity is

I didn't say anything about being special. What makes us more special than a bear, a wolf, or any of the trillions of bacteria that all play their role in maintaining life?

 

[Kirran]

God created a world with no fear, pain, hate, grief, no challenges of any kind, which still exists today- for Jellyfish. And hence no joy, love, growth, understanding either, would you trade?

You always bring out this one - you don't think your omnipotent monotheistic God could have created humans with the capacity for joy, love, etc but without the bad stuff? He couldn't have created a world where we were eternally blissful?

Are there no options between 'humans living in the world just as it is in the 21st century, with war, famine, rape, terrorism, prejudice, violence' and 'jellyfish'?

Hell, couldn't he have at least done without that species of worm that survives only by making children go blind by chewing through their eyeballs?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

You always bring out this one - you don't think your omnipotent monotheistic God could have created humans with the capacity for joy, love, etc but without the bad stuff? He couldn't have created a world where we were eternally blissful?

Yes, it's called heaven

Are there no options between 'humans living in the world just as it is in the 21st century, with war, famine, rape, terrorism, prejudice, violence' and 'jellyfish'?

would you trade with a dog then?

A bird is very tempting, but I don't fancy the menu!

Most of us are glad to be human, alive- to experience and appreciate creation as no animal can

Hell, couldn't he have at least done without that species of worm that survives only by making children go blind by chewing through their eyeballs?

Then it's a matter of tweaking the intensity of the challenges for you? But you accept the principle right?

Good, bad literally define each other, as much as left and right.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

We don't know if it is or not. And it seems very unlikely that we are alone. I would be far more surprised to learn we are alone than if there are billions of inhabited planets.

We have an ear on an entire galaxy and hear nothing but the 'great silence' as it is called. This is a particularly large, stable, hospitable galaxy- so it doesn't bode well for others. I think if we crunch the numbers, the universe would have to be much much larger to make another Earth probable.

I didn't say anything about being special. What makes us more special than a bear, a wolf, or any of the trillions of bacteria that all play their role in maintaining life?

How many bears, wolves or bacteria are here on the forum pondering these questions? why make a vast awe inspiring universe, for an animal who can never know it, feel it's awe?

Many (including atheist) cosmologists have noted how extraordinary it is, that the universe so lends itself to our observation and understanding

A book written in French, is primarily intended for the benefit of a Frenchman, that makes him 'special' in that he is specially considered by the creation he is experiencing, though there are plenty bacteria enjoying the paper also right?

 

[Kirran]

Yes, it's called heaven



would you trade with a dog then?

A bird is very tempting, but I don't fancy the menu!

Most of us are glad to be human, alive- to experience and appreciate creation as no animal can




Then it's a matter of tweaking the intensity of the challenges for you? But you accept the principle right?

Good, bad literally define each other, as much as left and right.

I just think you're reducing God's options to what you as a human being can imagine.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I just think you're reducing God's options to what you as a human being can imagine.

Not at all, God can't create a universe that has only left and not right

It's not a matter of omnipotence but logic, like good and bad, they are relative terms which define each other, one has no meaning without the other.

 

[Kirran]

Not at all, God can't create a universe that has only left and not right

It's not a matter of omnipotence but logic, like good and bad, they are relative terms which define each other, one has no meaning without the other.

This feels like a very intellectualised approach to me. What seems much important is serving God in His Creation, and feeling his presence directly from within your heart. This is how we attain to the Kingdom of God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We have an ear on an entire galaxy and hear nothing but the 'great silence' as it is called.

Which isn't really unexpected, since if we got a transmission today from the closest planet we think is habitable, it would have been sent, for us, way back during the "caveman" days. It's also very possible we aren't picking up anything because we aren't "tuned in" to the signals they would be using, much like how AM can't pick up FM and vice versa.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How many bears, wolves or bacteria are here on the forum pondering these questions?

Does it matter? The seemingly lack of thought in bacteria really don't make it any less important, for without millions of them functioning within your body, you cannot live. And without you, they cannot live.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Which isn't really unexpected, since if we got a transmission today from the closest planet we think is habitable, it would have been sent, for us, way back during the "caveman" days. It's also very possible we aren't picking up anything because we aren't "tuned in" to the signals they would be using, much like how AM can't pick up FM and vice versa.

The time lapse means we can pick up signals 10,000 years old from 10 KLY away yes. So it's a wash in terms of scoring a hit- just as if we were listening to the entire galaxy with no time delay. The whole galaxy is only 100, KLY across.. so compared with it's age, we are listening to a snapshot of very recent history, across all wavelengths, and we get nada.

To relate this to the topic... the challenge of the first bacteria eventually colonizing all Earth, is pretty daunting compared to a civilization colonizing the galaxy. It could have been done many times over by now by just one civilization with technology little better than out own, yet (ancient alien theories not withstanding) this apparently never happened.