What's so bad about "woo-woo" beliefs?

[no-body]

New age encompasses a lot of different groups and ideas unfortunately a lot of them tend to be very kooky groups of people with some very ridiculous beliefs. The loudest stupidest factions get all the attention in any group, unfortunately.

I hesitate to identify as new age but I do find myself constantly in the new age section reading new age teachers. Like Alan Watts practiced zen but did not consider himself a buddhist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who keeps throwing out the idea that magick deals with the supernatural? Utterly ridiculous.

That's what "magic" implies. In fact, it's the defining characteristic of magic. IMO, it makes no sense for people not to make this association with the term any more just because you slapped a silent letter on it.

It'd be like me putting the label "waterr" (with an extra R on the end! That's important!) on something dry and complaining when people think it refers to something wet.

 

[PolyHedral]

However, there are also things like primitive magick that seem to work. Entire groups of people dancing for rain that bring it on. Voodoo of course is an interesting one. There are groups who supposedly have thought people to death. Whether I believe this or not I am not sure. However, with things being connected at the deepest level it seems more and more likely.

All of that can be explain in terms of effects we already know about.

Really? Because actually we know from quantum physics that there is a certain level of uncertainty in prediction. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with my claim that ancients had similar ideas first. They could not possibly have known the complex nature of things like quantum physics and string theory. You cannot really give them crap for that.

I don't think I've ever seen an "ancient" philosophy that comes anywhere near the ideas of quantum mechanics.
Not to mention that that isn't actually what QM says: it says there is uncertainty in measurement. Prediction is something else - QM tells us the electron mass to be within 1 part in a billion, for instance.

 

[beerisit]

I am simply fascinated by these attempts to poo poo a WORD, whether it is associated with new age religion, I was responding to a post by HerDotness concerning the unexplainable response to placebos or positive thinking or whatever, what the ****** does it matter what it's freaking called. It bloody happens and I don't claim that it is magic or a miracle or mentathistic or anything. If you have a problem with a name that someone uses to describe a phenomenon then go and buy a life on ebay.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I just don't like New Age stuff because it's simple mindedness. It a McSpirituality that comes pre-packaged and in many different artificial flavors. And most of it is just marketing the same old hippy garbage over and over again.

And I hate hippies!

 

[CynthiaCypher]

And the atrocious things New Agers say about quantum physics and evolution make me sick!

[youtube]jfVIl1UUQns[/youtube]
Quantum Quacks: Part 1, Richard Dawkins exposes quantum charlatan Deepak Chopra - YouTube

 

[Quintessence]

Who keeps throwing out the idea that magick deals with the supernatural? Utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, this is kind of why I don't like discussing magic/spellcraft with outsiders. While I appreciate the varying opinions on the art, outsiders and insiders are usually talking about two completely different things when they use the word "magic." Most practitioners I've spoken to (such as yourself) consider magic to be a completely natural phenomena. If an outsider can't accept this, they probably need to bow out of the conversation because we're only going to talk circles around each other and no understanding is going to take place.

Bringing this back around to the original question posed by the thread, I think that terminology contributes to the tendency of certain groups to dismiss the New Age, Neopagan, and occult movements as nonsense. We dress up fairly ordinary occurrences in mystical terminology. Why do we do this when it confounds communication, especially with outsiders? Personally, I like the fantasy imagery and I find it fun, but it also often gets in the way.

 

[beerisit]

I just don't like New Age stuff because it's simple mindedness. It a McSpirituality that comes pre-packaged and in many different artificial flavors. And most of it is just marketing the same old hippy garbage over and over again.

And I hate hippies!

I don't care one way or another about New Age religions, but to criticise them for coming PREPACKAGED is really sad.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Really? Because actually we know from quantum physics that there is a certain level of uncertainty in prediction.

Such as what?

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with my claim that ancients had similar ideas first. They could not possibly have known the complex nature of things like quantum physics and string theory. You cannot really give them crap for that.

Exactly, so to equate quantum field theory with ancient ideas is ridiculous.

Well considering that people successfully practice it I would never try to live up to your definition of proof.

LOL! I have not offered a definition of proof, I simply stated magic has never been shown to exist. That is a fact.

Really? That is quite interesting. I guess occult science is far more intelligent than science if science cannot even realize that we interpret things subjectively with our senses.

If you say so. But, I have no idea what you mean. Science is a process for understanding the world around us. Occult science does not use the same methods.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I don't care one way or another about New Age religions, but to criticise them for coming PREPACKAGED is really sad.

The New Age Movement has always been about marketing, even one of it's major proponents Ken Wilbur levels that criticism. I think it fits the narcissistic generation it comes from.

 

[Quintessence]

I just don't like New Age stuff because it's simple mindedness. It a McSpirituality that comes pre-packaged and in many different artificial flavors. And most of it is just marketing the same old hippy garbage over and over again.

The New Age being "simple minded" isn't a criticism I've seen leveled before. Can you explain further why you feel that way about it? It doesn't seem that re-hashing material is enough to support this statement. I mean, if we want to talk about re-hashing material and beating dead horses, I think ancient religious texts like the Bible fit that bill better (no offense).

 

[CynthiaCypher]

The New Age being "simple minded" isn't a criticism I've seen leveled before. Can you explain further why you feel that way about it? It doesn't seem that re-hashing material is enough to support this statement. I mean, if we want to talk about re-hashing material and beating dead horses, I think ancient religious texts like the Bible fit that bill better (no offense).

Again;


[youtube]jfVIl1UUQns[/youtube]
Quantum Quacks: Part 1, Richard Dawkins exposes quantum charlatan Deepak Chopra - YouTube

It in general appeals to people who want their spiritual answers in a bite size, chewable, tasty and easy to swallow form. There is no substance to most of it.

 

[HerDotness]

Yeah, this is kind of why I don't like discussing magic/spellcraft with outsiders. While I appreciate the varying opinions on the art, outsiders and insiders are usually talking about two completely different things when they use the word "magic." Most practitioners I've spoken to (such as yourself) consider magic to be a completely natural phenomena. If an outsider can't accept this, they probably need to bow out of the conversation because we're only going to talk circles around each other and no understanding is going to take place.

Bringing this back around to the original question posed by the thread, I think that terminology contributes to the tendency of certain groups to dismiss the New Age, Neopagan, and occult movements as nonsense. We dress up fairly ordinary occurrences in mystical terminology. Why do we do this when it confounds communication, especially with outsiders? Personally, I like the fantasy imagery and I find it fun, but it also often gets in the way.

Good points.

As far as getting in the way, there are excellent reasons for mystical terminology as I'm sure you're aware. Besides, most of us into magick of various types have acquired sense enough to refuse to discuss exactly what we believe and do with the casually curious.

The questions I've had about my beliefs were primarily from people who expected a "This is what we believe" answer akin to the Reader's Digest version of a creed about which they'd find nothing to disapprove of. I'm disinclined to spell out what Thelema is about as if it's a sect of some major religion, sometimes even to witches and New Agers who, IME, tend to blanch and quickly change the subject when I mention Crowley.

To most people who ask, I ordinarily state that I'm a Unitarian which is much more easily explained in innocuous terms as belief that God is One and not a Trinity. They don't need to know precisely how I define deity and more than likely wouldn't want to.

 

[1137]

That's what "magic" implies. In fact, it's the defining characteristic of magic. IMO, it makes no sense for people not to make this association with the term any more just because you slapped a silent letter on it.

Haha this ignorance is almost too much to handle. The 'k' is a matter of personal opinion, it is not necessary. Many people do not even use it. Some of us do for personal taste and symbolism (as that is what magick is about) and others use it to tell the difference between stage magic and psychological magick. But I seriously doubt you are going to be able to grasp these concepts.

Yeah, this is kind of why I don't like discussing magic/spellcraft with outsiders.

I agree. It is kind of like banging your head against the wall. People have their ignorant preconceived notions that they don't want to let go of. More power to them.

Such as what?

Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly, so to equate quantum field theory with ancient ideas is ridiculous.

Well I find it amazing that people were thinking about these things thousands of years ago. This is like saying that the pyramids are not amazing because they were built by ancient civilizations, while the pyramids will be around long after our buildings are gone.

LOL! I have not offered a definition of proof, I simply stated magic has never been shown to exist. That is a fact.

Ok, well like your peers I am going to assume that you are just going to ignore definitions and concepts in order to keep secure in your beliefs. The FACT is that magick works perfectly well as long as you throw out your ignorant straw men and look at it for what it really is.

If you say so. But, I have no idea what you mean. Science is a process for understanding the world around us. Occult science does not use the same methods.

Really? You want to support this claim?

 

[no-body]

I just don't like New Age stuff because it's simple mindedness. It a McSpirituality that comes pre-packaged and in many different artificial flavors.

How is that any different from mainstream religions and beliefs? I like a lot of new age stuff precisely because it recycles and combines older beliefs into more understandable material.

And most of it is just marketing the same old hippy garbage over and over again.

And I hate hippies!

Oh well. Personally the only reason I hate hippies is because they sold out and failed (and continue to do so)

 

[HerDotness]

It in general appeals to people who want their spiritual answers in a bite size, chewable, tasty and easy to swallow form.

Same thing can be said for occultism. There are plenty of shock-the-parents wannabes in any one of its various branches.

Quintessence had a very good point; there's simply no explaining that those of us more seriously into occult practices have gone way beyond the "put out a curse and your Mom will drop dead" or "make that guy leave her and love you" stage long ago if we ever were dumb enough to think that's what it's about.

There is no substance to most of it.

It's not as if Deepak Chopra or Sylvia Browne are the gurus of all New Agers by any means. The more discerning have examined what these two spew out in book after book and have concluded there are lots of suckers ensuring that they continue to rake in the royalties.

 

[1137]

If we are going to go about speaking down on the power of the mind, saying that it is nothing but superstitious nonsense we are taking a leap backwards in psychology. Tell the people who ritualistically put spikes through their face that the power of the mind has no fact behind it. Or tell the addict who gets sober on his own that his will power is fictitious. Next time you try to convince yourself pain is not so bad, you are not as depressed as you believe, some terrible event is not the end of the world; remind yourself that you believe you are telling yourself a useless lie that has no factual effect in life. It is important to practice what you preach.

 

[PolyHedral]

Ok, well like your peers I am going to assume that you are just going to ignore definitions and concepts in order to keep secure in your beliefs. The FACT is that magick works perfectly well as long as you throw out your ignorant straw men and look at it for what it really is.

From what people in this thread have said, it is placebo. Nothing more.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

If we are going to go about speaking down on the power of the mind, saying that it is nothing but superstitious nonsense we are taking a leap backwards in psychology. Tell the people who ritualistically put spikes through their face that the power of the mind has no fact behind it. Or tell the addict who gets sober on his own that his will power is fictitious. Next time you try to convince yourself pain is not so bad, you are not as depressed as you believe, some terrible event is not the end of the world; remind yourself that you believe you are telling yourself a useless lie that has no factual effect in life. It is important to practice what you preach.

You mean the power of suggestion. People are susceptible to suggestion because we want to be fooled. We are afraid of reality so we invent these powerful lies to buffer ourselves against reality.

 

[1137]

From what people in this thread have said, it is placebo. Nothing more.

It is not simply placebo. Apparently you haven't actually read all that has been said. It is the art of causing that effect to work. Mastering your own mind. When you take placebo pills and feel that they are working, this is not conscious. You have to be tricked in order for it to work. With magick it is conscious, which is why it actually takes practice and dedication. You cannot hope to just have control over your mind after a day of trying.