What's the Abortion Debate Really About?

[oldbadger]

Some people have ethical objections to working on Sunday. My ethics would probably stop me from ever working in a casino. It's up to the individual to find a job that suits their wants and needs; it's not up to the employer to cater to the whims of its employees at the expense of its clients or customers.

Yes it is........
That is exactly what it is, in fact.
Well, I don't know about Canada, but in Brit there are very strict laws about this. I know because I lectured on such laws to trainees and recruits for some decades.

Whims? This sounds (as if) so right-wing it is just shocking me.

Here are just some whims which are costed directly to customers and clients:-
Rest days.
Holidays.
Bank Holidays.
All safety clothing and footwear.
Counselling.
Training.
Sickness and injury absence.
Maternity leave.
etc etc.......... all has to be costed to clients.

If you (were in a position to)start bullying hospital staff and trying to chuck them out of their jobs thru' stresses and traumas, especially over their Hippocratic oaths, then you would leave the world of justice, freedom and fairness and enter some other place.

To lose sight of our base-objectives over an issue that one is determined to enforce....... well...... there is a definition for that.

 

[adi2d]

Unless they need a blood transfusion. Then we should just let them die, right?

And the penguin swings.....its a hit....its going...going....goodbye baseball!!!!

 

[StarryNightshade]

Like any issue, abortion is a MASSIVE sea of grey that simply just can't fit into a black or white dichotomy.

The thing about both sides is that most of the supporters feel that what they think about the issue is what is ultimately best. One believing that a woman has complete rights over her body and the other believing all beings have a right to be born and live a full life. With the exception of the politics, those who are with one side for selfish reasons (pro-life and pro-choice), and the often times threats (and scare tactics) that come from some pro-lifers and pro-choicers; neither side is, inherently, wrong. It' all extremely subjective.

By the way, I say this as someone who is pro-choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you (were in a position to)start bullying hospital staff and trying to chuck them out of their jobs thru' stresses and traumas, especially over their Hippocratic oaths, then you would leave the world of justice, freedom and fairness and enter some other place.

To lose sight of our base-objectives over an issue that one is determined to enforce....... well...... there is a definition for that.

Performing abortions does not go against any medical code of ethics in either of our countries. I understand that some people would not choose to do abortions; they can accommodate their consciences by finding jobs that do not involve performing abortions.

It's no different than a vegan who gets a job in a restaurant that serves meat, or an Orthodox Jew who gets a job with a business that operates on the Sabbath. Some deeply-held beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with some jobs to the point that it would be impossible for an employer to accommodate them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like any issue, abortion is a MASSIVE sea of grey that simply just can't fit into a black or white dichotomy.

The thing about both sides is that most of the supporters feel that what they think about the issue is what is ultimately best. One believing that a woman has complete rights over her body and the other believing all beings have a right to be born and live a full life. With the exception of the politics, those who are with one side for selfish reasons (pro-life and pro-choice), and the often times threats (and scare tactics) that come from some pro-lifers and pro-choicers; neither side is, inherently, wrong. It' all extremely subjective.

By the way, I say this as someone who is pro-choice.

And what you just said is an argument for the pro-choice position: in a free society, when there is an issue with a lot of grey area where no side is inherently wrong, the thing to do is to grant people the freedom to follow the dictates of their consciences.

 

[Yadon]

Most Christians I have asked are okay with birth control pills or condoms (so long as the people are marrried) but not abortion. Christianity is the dominant religion in my country.

For me personally I think past a certain point aborting a fetus is unethical. So birth control is a preventive for even the situation needing to come up to decide or not. I am all for birth control and real sex education and not this fake abstinence sex education.

 

[Me Myself]

I put non of the above.

It as about what we see as a human life and how how much we value it in comparison to concepts of "ownership"

 

[oldbadger]

I put non of the above.

It as about what we see as a human life and how how much we value it in comparison to concepts of "ownership"

Exactly.... this ^^^^

Let's face it, the poll was not well thought out.
I had to vote 'none of the above' as well.

 

[oldbadger]

Performing abortions does not go against any medical code of ethics in either of our countries.

I don't think you can hide behind the above.......

Pages back, I asked you:-

Originally Posted by oldbadger View Post
at what point in foetus development would you agree with foetus protection?

You replied.....

Never.

So neither of our countries will ever accept what you want.

.......................................

I honestly feel that those with your opinions should work in an abortion theatre. You don't have to be a surgeon, doctor, or theatre nurse. You could push the medical waste trolley to the incinerator and shovel the remains in, or something.

And I reckon that before too long you would quit. Imagine the dreams...... the nightmares.

Let's see you bat that ball away......... it's going to bounce back, isn't it?

 

[Sunstone]

What's with this nonsensical argument you are making against abortion, Badger? You have repeatedly argued to the effect that abortion is bad because it is nauseating and repulsive. Have you any idea how illogical that is? If the moral value of something could be reliably measured by how repulsive it is to us, this would be a very different world.

 

[crossfire]

What's with this nonsensical argument you are making against abortion, Badger? You have repeatedly argued to the effect that abortion is bad because it is nauseating and repulsive. Have you any idea how illogical that is? If the moral value of something could be reliably measured by how repulsive it is to us, this would be a very different world.

Changing dirty diapers might also be nauseating and repulsive, but not changing a dirty diaper would be considered to be immoral!

 

[oldbadger]

What's with this nonsensical argument you are making against abortion, Badger?

Wake up!
I'm not against abortion. I am not opposed to the UK law of 25-26 weeks.
Do you read all the posts on your own thread?

You have repeatedly argued to the effect that abortion is bad because it is nauseating and repulsive.

Wrong again. I have argued that many medical staff cannot carry our abortions, and I have argued that many medical staff who have carried out abortions have later suffered from their experiences.
You're not having a good week, are you?

Have you any idea how illogical that is? If the moral value of something could be reliably measured by how repulsive it is to us, this would be a very different world.

Oh dear me....... you thought this would be another comfy debate where you could show off your amazing debating skills against some religions..... is that true? Now you try to hide behind other bad things in the world as an argument to make me go away?


Could I invite you to tell us all exactly where you stand about abortion? Do you feel that there is a point (in pregnancy time or foetal development) where a foetus should be protected by law? Just answer that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think you can hide behind the above.......

Pages back, I asked you:-


You replied.....


So neither of our countries will ever accept what you want.

There are no legal restrictions on abortion in Canada. Late-term abortion is rare but legal.

I honestly feel that those with your opinions should work in an abortion theatre. You don't have to be a surgeon, doctor, or theatre nurse. You could push the medical waste trolley to the incinerator and shovel the remains in, or something.

And I reckon that before too long you would quit. Imagine the dreams...... the nightmares.

As I said before, there are plenty of people with difficult jobs. A friend of mine has a similar job to mine (transportation engineering with a heavy emphasis on road safety), but with one difference: whenever there's a fatal collision in his area, he has to investigate it in person. Would I be able to do that job? I don't know. Do I think it's worthwhile and meaningful? Yes.

I really don't understand why you keep repeating the same point over and over. Certain jobs are incompatible with certain beliefs. If you have a religious objection to working on Sunday, don't get a job that requires you to work on Sunday. If you have a religious objection to abortion, don't get a job that requires you to participate in abortions. It's really as simple as that.

 

[oldbadger]

There are no legal restrictions on abortion in Canada.

Hi again....... I must come back to this later today...... must go out at this time.

 

[oldbadger]

There are no legal restrictions on abortion in Canada. Late-term abortion is rare but legal.

A very unclear picture. Only one third of Canadian hospitals undertake abortions, and 20 weeks is their max limit. Only a very few hospitals can undertake abortions later than this and it is their prerogative.

This suggests that a huge % of your entire medical faculty has in fact made a clear decision about its involvement. Ergo, had you been a medic-boss you might have found yourself in a very nasty situation, what with your viewp[oint about 'do the job or quit'.

As I said before, there are plenty of people with difficult jobs. A friend of mine has a similar job to mine (transportation engineering with a heavy emphasis on road safety), but with one difference: whenever there's a fatal collision in his area, he has to investigate it in person. Would I be able to do that job? I don't know. Do I think it's worthwhile and meaningful? Yes.

So let's guess from the above that you wouldn't last in an abortion clinic for a morning. Is that fair enough?

I really don't understand why you keep repeating the same point over and over.

How many times have you used the 'you would let a child die for want of blood' on Jehovah's Witnesses? You've used that on this thread....... and, by the way, an amazing example of your lack of empathy. Can you imagine what it must be like for Jehovah's Witness parents to watch their child die, feeling completely unable to do anything thru their laws and beliefs? Do you think that they would be leaving the hospital saying 'Well that's that..... what's for tea?' or something?

Certain jobs are incompatible with certain beliefs. If you have a religious objection to working on Sunday, don't get a job that requires you to work on Sunday. If you have a religious objection to abortion, don't get a job that requires you to participate in abortions. It's really as simple as that.

This reminded me about the most ruthless and unscrupulous right-wing businessman I ever spoke with (at a business lunch) , who controlled the biggest timber business in all Britain. In the early to mid 70's we had big miner's strikes, with power cuts, the lot. They were fighting for a decent wage for their terrible risks.

He asked me what I thought about the miners. I told him that I would not dare to do their job for three times the money. He made some silly joke and all his cronies laughed, and then he said , 'It's their culture. It's in their blood. It's what they know. They don't deserve a penny more. It's all they can do. If they don't like it, then they can get out.'

You reminded me about what that man said. How do you feel about that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A very unclear picture. Only one third of Canadian hospitals undertake abortions, and 20 weeks is their max limit. Only a very few hospitals can undertake abortions later than this and it is their prerogative.

This suggests that a huge % of your entire medical faculty has in fact made a clear decision about its involvement.

No, it doesn't. That's a horrible inference.

Not all services are provided in all hospitals. Each hospital has its own specialties and capabilities. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you could find any specialized procedure that's performed at every hospital.

And the 2/3 of hospitals that don't perform abortions would include places like the Shouldice Hospital (a specialized hospital that only does hernia surgery) and the Hospital for Sick Children (a hospital that only treats, well, children).

There are only five specialized pediatric cancer centres in Ontario. Do you think this suggests that we have a rash of doctors and nurses who don't think children's cancer should be treated?

So let's guess from the above that you wouldn't last in an abortion clinic for a morning. Is that fair enough?

No, it's not.

How many times have you used the 'you would let a child die for want of blood' on Jehovah's Witnesses? You've used that on this thread....... and, by the way, an amazing example of your lack of empathy. Can you imagine what it must be like for Jehovah's Witness parents to watch their child die, feeling completely unable to do anything thru their laws and beliefs? Do you think that they would be leaving the hospital saying 'Well that's that..... what's for tea?' or something?

Probably not. It's probably awful for them, but I reserve my sympathy for the children in those cases.

This reminded me about the most ruthless and unscrupulous right-wing businessman I ever spoke with (at a business lunch) , who controlled the biggest timber business in all Britain. In the early to mid 70's we had big miner's strikes, with power cuts, the lot. They were fighting for a decent wage for their terrible risks.

He asked me what I thought about the miners. I told him that I would not dare to do their job for three times the money. He made some silly joke and all his cronies laughed, and then he said , 'It's their culture. It's in their blood. It's what they know. They don't deserve a penny more. It's all they can do. If they don't like it, then they can get out.'

You reminded me about what that man said. How do you feel about that?

I feel that you must care very little about the women who seek abortions if you consider imagined concerns that you assume their doctors might have to be more important than the well-being of their patients.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How many times have you used the 'you would let a child die for want of blood' on Jehovah's Witnesses? You've used that on this thread....... and, by the way, an amazing example of your lack of empathy. Can you imagine what it must be like for Jehovah's Witness parents to watch their child die, feeling completely unable to do anything thru their laws and beliefs? Do you think that they would be leaving the hospital saying 'Well that's that..... what's for tea?' or something?

Just to be clear about this: I would never go up to a grieving parent and say "your beliefs killed your kid! Nyah nyah!" What I was doing in my comment to Pegg was pointing out that even if we grant her premise that a fetus is a child, it's hypocritical to place a high value of the life of a "child" in one case while placing a very low value on them in another.

 

[Me Myself]

No, it doesn't. That's a horrible inference.

Not all services are provided in all hospitals. Each hospital has its own specialties and capabilities. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you could find any specialized procedure that's performed at every hospital.

And the 2/3 of hospitals that don't perform abortions would include places like the Shouldice Hospital (a specialized hospital that only does hernia surgery) and the Hospital for Sick Children (a hospital that only treats, well, children).

There are only five specialized pediatric cancer centres in Ontario. Do you think this suggests that we have a rash of doctors and nurses who don't think children's cancer should be treated?


No, it's not.


Probably not. It's probably awful for them, but I reserve my sympathy for the children in those cases.


I feel that you must care very little about the women who seek abortions if you consider imagined concerns that you assume their doctors might have to be more important than the well-being of their patients.

I think saving anyone's regard and value for human life in general is more important than saving someone the troubles of a different life than that which they envisioned any day of the week.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think saving anyone's regard and value for human life in general is more important than saving someone the troubles of a different life than that which they envisioned any day of the week.

I'm not sure what trying to make here. Could you explain or rephrase?

 

[oldbadger]

I feel that you must care very little about the women who seek abortions if you consider imagined concerns that you assume their doctors might have to be more important than the well-being of their patients.

You just can't grasp it, can you? ........... the fact that I support the UK legislation which allows abortions up to 25-26 weeks...? But I recognise the rights of people who will not or cannot take part in such terminations, who stand by their perceptions of humanity, oaths, feelings and beliefs. Even now you ramble on about their religions..... none of the nurses I know who refuse are religious.
You're not debating with a religious person here, so your weak retorts and old-chestnuts are redundant.

I am simply advising you that you lost one whole heap of support when you wrote on this thread that this time limit was unacceptable in your opinion. Not many folks want to stand with you over your 'Never' response to my question about 'time limits'.

Why don't you reconsider your position about that? Or go and find other members who will stand by you to support terminations of unwanted pregnancies at, say, 26-35 weeks?

In any event, each and every termination should be conducted with sadness by all...... just as Jehovah's Witness parents would grieve for ever over a lost child. My first wife, in later life, broke down many times over an early life abortion. I will never forget her repeated demonstrations of trauma.

I support the freedom of choice of women everywhere, just as I do men..... the big difference between us is that I am an egaliterian, who believes in the freedoms of all, including doctors and nurses..... oh.... and the protection of their employments. Not quite so easy a target as you (and others) might have thought, maybe?

The best way to avoid folks like me is to stuff these types of debates into DIR's where egalitarians do not enter, then you can all sit round an imaginary fireside and write comfy posts to each other? What d'ya think?