What's the Abortion Debate Really About?

[Me Myself]

I'm not sure what trying to make here. Could you explain or rephrase?

If someone feels disgusted by unnecessary killing, that is outstanding and something we should appareciate value and pretty much have as standard.

Hopefully that is a bit clearer?

 

[Me Myself]

And its really not about womens reproductive choices. Its about humans killing choices.

If it were against women, then it would be men deciding when it is correct to get an abortion.

Its just plain dont kill an unborn. Some of you say that is not a human being yet, but that is your stance.

 

[MoonWater]

And its really not about womens reproductive choices. Its about humans killing choices.

If it were against women, then it would be men deciding when it is correct to get an abortion.

Its just plain dont kill an unborn. Some of you say that is not a human being yet, but that is your stance.

Men already do decide. They call themselves congress.

 

[Me Myself]

Men already do decide. They call themselves congress.

Men dont decide. The congress decides. There is no law that the congress must be male. Their penis/vahina status has no importance on the issue.

The thing is that if it was just sexism, there are way more "constructive" ways to be sexist. Here most often than not, the man beggs the woman to have an abortion (even though it is ilegal here) and they in the other side stand to principles.

Unplanned parenthood isnt comfortable for anyone. The thing is that it has nothing to do with personal sex. Its about the value of life.

All matter of things happen to our bodies without us expecting or wanting them. It is not reasonable to kill an innocent to end anything.

 

[adi2d]

And its really not about womens reproductive choices. Its about humans killing choices.

If it were against women, then it would be men deciding when it is correct to get an abortion.

Its just plain dont kill an unborn. Some of you say that is not a human being yet, but that is your stance.

And some of you say that it is a human being but that is your stance

 

[Me Myself]

And some of you say that it is a human being but that is your stance

Indeed.

 

[adi2d]

Indeed.

Opinions vary. Only logic is every womans choice

 

[oldbadger]

Opinions vary. Only logic is every womans choice

Only logic is every human's choice........ and humanity, and values, and laws, and.....

Better?

 

[adi2d]

Only logic is every human's choice........ and humanity, and values, and laws, and.....

Better?

You're right all people set laws and values pertaining to them

If any man has an unwanted pregnancy the he should decide on his abortion or not

 

[Me Myself]

Only logic is every human's choice........ and humanity, and values, and laws, and.....

Better?

Yeah that is better.

Babies are less intelligent than adult dogs and yet we grant them personhood.

The reason we dont grant that to the unborn is convinience, and human value should be worth more than that.

 

[oldbadger]

You're right all people set laws and values pertaining to them

If any man has an unwanted pregnancy the he should decide on his abortion or not

If all the women in the world could set a standard, or law, regarding abortion, I believe that the majority would support legislation which protects foetuses at 24-26 week's development.

Many many nurses, of which many are females, will have nothing to do with getting rid of unwanted foetuses at any time.

How does that fit with your agenda?

 

[oldbadger]

Opinions vary. Only logic is every womans choice

I forgot to ask you.....
Do you agree that there should be a point in foetus development at which it should be protected from (unwanted) termination by law? If so, at what stage?

Could you give an answer to that?

 

[adi2d]

If all the women in the world could set a standard, or law, regarding abortion, I believe that the majority would support legislation which protects foetuses at 24-26 week's development.

Many many nurses, of which many are females, will have nothing to do with getting rid of unwanted foetuses at any time.

How does that fit with your agenda?

Personal values aren't subject to majority vote

Those nurses should follow their personal values

Agenda? I have no agenda. It would take a miracle for my wife to get pregnant.

 

[adi2d]

I forgot to ask you.....
Do you agree that there should be a point in foetus development at which it should be protected from (unwanted) termination by law? If so, at what stage?

Could you give an answer to that?

My opinion that a fetus becomes a living creature with first breathe.

 

[Me Myself]

My opinion that a fetus becomes a living creature with first breathe.

It is nt even a living creature before? wow.

If baby gets out of mother with breaing problems it was as relevant as a rock dying.

Nice sense of human value.

 

[Sunstone]

Anyone who wishes to understand how the anti-choice movement is about much more than the rights of the fetus should read this.

 

[adi2d]

It is nt even a living creature before? wow.

If baby gets out of mother with breaing problems it was as relevant as a rock dying.

Nice sense of human value.

My opinion is its alive and part of the woman

If baby gets out of mother and doesn't take a breath(not breathing problems) it is not alive. Of course it is relevant. The mother has lost her baby

How can you possibly know what my human values are?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You just can't grasp it, can you? ........... the fact that I support the UK legislation which allows abortions up to 25-26 weeks...?

I realize this is your position; I just disagree with it.

But I recognise the rights of people who will not or cannot take part in such terminations, who stand by their perceptions of humanity, oaths, feelings and beliefs.

... while disregarding their duty to the patient.

BTW: can you show us what any of the oasth that you almost constantly refer to actually say?

Even now you ramble on about their religions..... none of the nurses I know who refuse are religious.
You're not debating with a religious person here, so your weak retorts and old-chestnuts are redundant.

Religion or conscience... either or. I have (non-religious) ethical problems with certain kinds of gambling, so I don't try to get a job in a casino. I wouldn't get a job as a blackjack dealer and then demand that my employer accommodate my anti-gambling views.

I am simply advising you that you lost one whole heap of support when you wrote on this thread that this time limit was unacceptable in your opinion. Not many folks want to stand with you over your 'Never' response to my question about 'time limits'.

Why don't you reconsider your position about that?

Because I care more about being ethical than about being popular.

Or go and find other members who will stand by you to support terminations of unwanted pregnancies at, say, 26-35 weeks?

Just to be clear: I advocate the woman's right to end her pregnancy at any point, not necessarily for the fetus to be terminated. Early in the pregnancy, these outcomes go together, but if a woman is near full-term and decides she doesn't want to be pregnant any mire (which, as I've said is a rare case), this can be accommodated by inducing a live birth.

Also, I think it's important to point something out: it's virtually unheard of for a woman to seek a third-trimester abortion simply because she doesn't want the baby. The vast majority of women who do seek a third-trimester abortion are in cases where somethkng has gone horribly wrong already: either the pregnancy is a major threat to the life of the woman, or there's a defect in the fetus so bad that its life as a baby will be short and painful if it lives outside the womb at all. That's the typical case that we're talking about when we're talking about late-term abortion: a wanted pregnancy that went horribly awry.

In any event, each and every termination should be conducted with sadness by all...... just as Jehovah's Witness parents would grieve for ever over a lost child. My first wife, in later life, broke down many times over an early life abortion. I will never forget her repeated demonstrations of trauma.

I'm sorry that your wife felt that way, but you should realize that her reaction is far from universal.

I support the freedom of choice of women everywhere, just as I do men.....

No, you don't. You've been quite emphatic that you're against freedom of choice for one class of women.

the big difference between us is that I am an egaliterian, who believes in the freedoms of all, including doctors and nurses..... oh.... and the protection of their employments. Not quite so easy a target as you (and others) might have thought, maybe?

I still don't understand why you keep harping on about the "freedom" of doctors and nurses. Why would it not protect their freedom enough to simply be clear with them about the duties of their particular job and allow them to decide whether they want to do them when they accept the job? There are many options available for a doctor or nurse who doesn't want to be involved in abortion; if they worked in oncology, a burn unit, cardiac care, or any number of specialties, they could go their whole careers without ever having anything to do with an abortion.

The best way to avoid folks like me is to stuff these types of debates into DIR's where egalitarians do not enter, then you can all sit round an imaginary fireside and write comfy posts to each other? What d'ya think?

I'm not looking to avoid you. Debate is a win-win: if I'm proved wrong on some point, it's an opportunity to change my own position for the better, and exposing the weaknesses in someone else's position can hopefully change some minds.

 

[ChristineES]

I can't get over how many people really think that we who are against abortion think it's because we want to control women's choices about their reproduction. It isn't true at all for me. I don't protest against it at abortion clinics or anything because it is legal, however.

 

[idav]

Anyone who wishes to understand how the anti-choice movement is about much more than the rights of the fetus should read this.

I see it like that writer. Im pro-choice but I am also not pro-abortion. Becomes an issue when the girlfriend wants to terminate but the boyfriend doesnt, too bad so sad for the boyfriend because the womans choice trumps an boyfriends wanting a clear conscience. There are some women that might even choose to keep a baby and never even letting the guy know.