What's the Abortion Debate Really About?

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Being you compared killing a developing human being to being as simple to you as killing a cockroach. It means that you have a very low opinion of human life. It's morally offensive. Since you have such a low opinion of life, I was thinking that it would best for you if you didn't reproduce because you don't seem fit for it with that attitude. Would you feel comfortable showing that post to your kid(s)? If so, that would be even more alarming.

You have a very low opinion of cockroaches, they are alive and feel pain, I find that offensive.
You also have a very low opinion of women if you believe they should bare children at all costs.
Once again don't tell me what is best for me. I would teach my children to have children when they are emotionally and financially stable enough to do so, which would mean both them and the children would have a better quality of life, and I would tell any of my children that can get pregnant that if they do get pregnant and don't want a child that it's their body and they have all rights to kill it and it is not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because you compared killing a developing human being to being as simple to you as killing a cockroach. It means that you have a very low opinion of human life. It's morally offensive. Since you have such a low opinion of life, I was thinking that it would best for you if you didn't reproduce because you don't seem fit for it with that attitude. Would you feel comfortable showing that post to your kid(s)? If so, that would be even more alarming.

The anti-choice position denies rights to pregnant women that we even grant to corpses. If anyone's position implies a low opinion of life, it's yours.

 

[oldbadger]

I wouldn't compel a woman to provide her organs or tissue against her will to her child after the child is born, even if the child would surely die otherwise. Why would I grant rights to a fetus that I wouldn't grant to a person?

I'm trying to discover exactly where you draw your line.

Your analogy, above, interests me. So, because a mother does not have to give a kidney (whatever) to her (needy) child, you feel that her unborn foetus should be terminated (if she desires) at any point before birth?

This is interesting......... the concept that that birth minus(say)a week the mother could order 'Get ride of this!' but that at plus(say) a week she could not order 'Get rid of this'. Have I got this right?

 

[oldbadger]

I think that people should perform the duties of their jobs. If that includes abortions, then they should do them. Nobody's forced to take a particular job.

I've been in situations where I had ethical issues with either the employer or the job. When that happened, I found another job.

So....... if you were the boss of Canadian-health, what would you do if doctors and nurses refused to take part in abortion operations?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn't imply understanding had to mean agreeing with them. But understanding does help to tone down the judgmental attitude.

I understand that abortion is an extremely difficult issue. My sister has probably had multiple abortions, so I'm missing possible nieces and nephews. We don't talk about it, though. She's mentally ill, anyway, and she might not even remember it. I think it's just an extremely sad situation. My mom actually had an appointment to have me aborted. She obviously didn't, but that still bothers me to this day. It will probably always bother me. Abortion is usually tied into harsh social situations and I think that if we're going to get anywhere on this issue, we need to fix this society. That's part of the reason why I'm a socialist. Poverty is an underlying cause of abortion. We have to work to lift people out of poverty and provide quality health care and assistance for those who are experiencing socially difficult pregnancies. After all that, even if the mother still decides that she doesn't want the child, I would hope that she would give him or her up for adoption.

Abortion just pains me because it's the destruction of life, the destruction of a human being who has so much potential and it causes so much heartache. It's bad enough that miscarriages and other health problems happen that cause the baby, the woman or both to die. I just don't think we should add to the death toll.

I did look. Are you implying that using surgical tools is the precursor for the gory bloodbath from past appeals to emotion? That somehow RU486 is more sanitary and less repulsive?

Help me out here with what you're trying to say as your stance. The facts are there too from the Guttmacher Institute, the CDC, American Pregnancy.org, and Planned Parenthood.

I just posted the statistics to clear up confusion.

It isn't a live birth. It isn't even a birth, and it isn't supposed to be.

I know.

My point is that your appeals to emotion are losing steam. Talking about ripping apart a little tiny baby isn't medically correct. It's philosophical and terrifyingly poetic.

Depends on how you wish to define "baby". Fetus, then.

No, the compromise is with fetal viability. I've stated this numerous times before. A fetus, when roughly 24-26 weeks, has the possible capability to survive outside the uterus, and around that time a woman and her doctor have to regard what is the best appropriate action based on the woman's health, gestational age, and the personal ethics of the doctor. A doctor can refuse to provide services and shouldn't be forced to perform them, but a doctor should also not bar a woman from seeking medical services from someone else who is open to performing them.

Calling my stance "pro-abortion" is untrue. I'll repeat: abortion should legal, safe, and rare. I suggest you look back and read again why I feel they should be rare instead of misrepresenting my position again.

I'll keep that in mind.

I'm glad you feel good about your stance. People should. And again, please don't apologize. There is nothing wrong about my decision to support legal abortion for women.



Again, I'm happy for you.

Fair enough.

Not to derail the thread - so if you wish not to answer, that's fine - but I'm just curious. What kind of financial assistance?

Public assistance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You have a very low opinion of cockroaches, they are alive and feel pain, I find that offensive.

For what it's worth, I don't like killing insects, either. But that doesn't mean that you're not being ridiculous.

You also have a very low opinion of women if you believe they should bare children at all costs.

No, I think they and their partners should be responsible.

Once again don't tell me what is best for me.

I did say that you'll do what you want, anyway.

I would teach my children to have children when they are emotionally and financially stable enough to do so, which would mean both them and the children would have a better quality of life, and I would tell any of my children that can get pregnant that if they do get pregnant and don't want a child that it's their body and they have all rights to kill it and it is not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

The difference between killing and murder is only a legal one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The anti-choice position denies rights to pregnant women that we even grant to corpses.

Corpses are allowed to abort their children? I mean, I know about coffin birth and all, but I never expected to see it brought up in a conversation.

If anyone's position implies a low opinion of life, it's yours.

Let's see how much more warped you can get with the rhetoric.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

For what it's worth, I don't like killing insects, either. But that doesn't mean that you're not being ridiculous.

great but sometimes it needs to be done, no one "likes" having an abortion but they should be able to make a decision that is right for them and the future of the child.

No, I think they and their partners should be responsible.

Me too, but crap happens that doesn't mean the woman should have to struggle for 18 plus years because of it.

I did say that you'll do what you want, anyway.

I will so stop telling me what to do with my womb

The difference between killing and murder is only a legal one.

Alright don't put bleach in your toliet then you're "murdering" the germs

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

great but sometimes it needs to be done, no one "likes" having an abortion but they should be able to make a decision that is right for them and the future of the child.

Me too, but crap happens that doesn't mean the woman should have to struggle for 18 plus years because of it.

That's why there's condoms and the pill.

I will so stop telling me what to do with my womb

I didn't know that posts on a message board have such power.

Alright don't put bleach in your toliet then you're "murdering" the germs

 

[idav]

I would teach my children to have children when they are emotionally and financially stable enough to do so,....

I've been needing to have the talk with my soon to be teenager. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of not having sex until they are married or turn 30, which ever comes first. I would be of the mind to tell them not to have sex until they are emotionally and financially ready to have a kid. I know just my wishful thinking.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

That's why there's condoms and the pill.

Oh saint, there is such thing as a mistake and a bad decision and there is such thing as rape.

I didn't know that posts on a message board have such power.

Nothing to do with power.

right back at you

 

[oldbadger]

Pro-life is about that fact that every baby is a miracle of nature, and an infinitely priceless gift from god.

Oh...... I didn't know that. So...... all pro-lifers believe in god, then? Your knowledge is amazing.......... Wow.......

Oh, and every **** who gets knocked up was asking for it, one way or another, and they should be saddled with unwanted kids for the rest of their lives in order to punish them for spreading their legs and being such loose whores.

Not in the US or UK they don't have to........... up to 25(ish) weeks they can end their pregnancy. So where on earth do you live, then?

But, mostly because each and every baby is a unique expression of god's endless love.

Oh what a lovely thought........ bless you! :yes:

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I've been needing to have the talk with my soon to be teenager. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of not having sex until they are married or turn 30, which ever comes first. I would be of the mind to tell them not to have sex until they are emotionally and financially ready to have a kid. I know just my wishful thinking.

Just need to make sure, are you joking?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh saint, there is such thing as a mistake and a bad decision and there is such thing as rape.

That's where responsibility comes into play.

Rape pregnancies do happen, but are pretty rare. But that is a hypothetical situation.

right back at you

Coming from a person who compares developing humans to germs and roaches, that doesn't mean much to me.

 

[idav]

Just need to make sure, are you joking?

Yes I'm joking but not about my soon to be teenager. Safety and protection if abstinence isn't going to happen. I'd prefer they wait but that ain't up to me, we can just advice and guide the best we can and hope its enough.

 

[Pegg]

killing babies is bad. Thats what its about.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

That's where responsibility comes into play.

obviously, but once again that doesn't mean a woman has to struggle for 18 plus years.

Rape pregnancies do happen, but are pretty rare. But that is a hypothetical situation.

So what if it's rare, it happens.

Coming from a person who compares developing humans to germs and roaches, that doesn't mean much to me.

And coming for a person that puts a zygote, embryo and fetus before a woman, it doesn't mean much to me either.

 

[oldbadger]

I think that people should perform the duties of their jobs. If that includes abortions, then they should do them. Nobody's forced to take a particular job.

I've been in situations where I had ethical issues with either the employer or the job. When that happened, I found another job.

................ so........... you do recognise that your first paragragh contains, or could contain ethical issues?

Could I ask, what ethical issues forced you to leave employments in your past? What did you do? May I ask that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

obviously, but once again that doesn't mean a woman has to struggle for 18 plus years.

Then keep your pants on, use a condom or get on the pill.

So what if it's rare, it happens.

And that still doesn't mean that the person will end up getting an abortion. Pro-choicers just love bringing up events that have small chances of happening.

And coming for a person that puts a zygote, embryo and fetus before a woman, it doesn't mean much to me either.

Unlike you, I consider the needs of and am concerned for both.

 

[idav]

killing babies is bad.

I have a hard time thinking of a good rebuttal for this. I think I remember someone making that thread title too.