What's the Abortion Debate Really About?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So....... if you were the boss of Canadian-health, what would you do if doctors and nurses refused to take part in abortion operations?

if these duties were part of their job, I would give them a reasonable number of chances to change their mind. If other positions in the organization are available, they'd be able to apply like any other internal applicant.

Failing that, if they weren't successful getting another position and continued to refuse to do the one they have, I would fire them. I understand that some people aren't comfortable with taking part in abortions, but this doesn't mean they have a right to be paid as if they're doing them when they're not.

What do you think should be done with employees who refuse to do their job?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Yes I'm joking but not about my soon to be teenager. Safety and protection if abstinence isn't going to happen. I'd prefer they wait but that ain't up to me, we can just advice and guide the best we can and hope its enough.

Ok well if you are joking...I am going to teach my children that sex is wrong until they are married and really to have children also, that way if the women does accidentally get pregnant it means of course they would be so happy and ready to have a baby!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Then keep your pants on, use a condom or get on the pill.

black and white I see

And that still doesn't mean that the person will end up getting an abortion. Pro-choicers just love bringing up events that have small chances of happening.

Doesn't matter it does happen and she should have the right to end a forced pregnancy.

Unlike you, I consider the needs of and am concerned for both.

I am concerned for both, I wouldn't want a child to end up in foster care with the possibility of never being adopted, living in poverty, with mentally unstable parents.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

black and white I see

It pretty much is. Unwanted pregnancies from consensual sex are usually the result of being irresponsible.

Doesn't matter it does happen and she should have the right to end a forced pregnancy.

She can make it but that doesn't mean that I support that choice.

I am concerned for both, I wouldn't want a child to end up in foster care with the possibility of never being adopted, living in poverty, with mentally unstable parents.

I'd rather be in foster care, poor or with crazy parents than dead, personally.

 

[oldbadger]

if these duties were part of their job, I would give them a reasonable number of chances to change their mind. If other positions in the organization are available, they'd be able to apply like any other internal applicant.

This is massively interesting....... So doctors, surgeons and nurses who, for whatever reason, would not end pregnancies but who were devoted to saving lives and ending illnesses would be diverted to other duties...?

Failing that, if they weren't successful getting another position and continued to refuse to do the one they have, I would fire them. I understand that some people aren't comfortable with taking part in abortions, but this doesn't mean they have a right to be paid as if they're doing them when they're not.

So..... Doctors, nurses and surgeons, and anesthetists..... and surgery support staff...... would not have any freedom of choice about this in your world? You would dictate...... and they would obey?
Do you think that endless operations where miniature humans are extracted to die before you cannot or will not eventually lead to post traumatic stress?
Have you ever heard of a condition called 'falling off the stress threshold'? It often happens at circa 18months (average) but that is..... the average....?

What do you think should be done with employees who refuse to do their job?

Well, what were your circumstances when ethics demanded that you refuse certain orders? What were they?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It pretty much is. Unwanted pregnancies from consensual sex are usually the result of being irresponsible.

And? People make mistakes, hopefully they learn for it, but I still support their right to have control over their body and future even if they don't

She can make it but that doesn't mean that I support that choice.

So you think a zygote, embryo and fetus if more important then the mental well being of a woman who has been raped and made pregnant against her will?

I'd rather be in foster care, poor or with crazy parents than dead, personally.

And some people would rather be aborted when they could be then have parents that don't love them. Either way the abortion takes place way before it can even have an opinion so it doesn't matter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Corpses are allowed to abort their children? I mean, I know about coffin birth and all, but I never expected to see it brought up in a conversation.

Corpses have the right to bodily security. Even if lives could be saved by using a corpse (by harvesting organs or tissue, for instance), if the person's wishes were that his corpse wasn't to be touched, the body gets buried or cremated intact and the people who could've been saved die.

We respect a corpse enough not to use its body against its will (or the will of its former owner, I suppose) even when lives hang in the balance. You don't respect pregnant women enough to grant them the same courtesy.

The anti-choice position demeans pregnant women, and by extension, people in general.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

killing babies is bad. Thats what its about.

Unless they need a blood transfusion. Then we should just let them die, right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And? People make mistakes, hopefully they learn for it, but I still support their right to have control over their body and future even if they don't

My hope is that they make a choice that's not based on selfishness.

So you think a zygote, embryo and fetus if more important then the mental well being of a woman who has been raped and made pregnant against her will?

My hope here will that she would find the compassion within herself not to punish the child for the sins of the father and so extend her mental distress. I know of one lesbian who was raped and made the choice not to abort her child. She even brought ultrasound pictures to school to show to us.

And some people would rather be aborted when they could be then have parents that don't love them.

And that's quite sad. My dad doesn't love me, abused me and than abandoned my mom and I. Sometimes I wish I were dead, but deep down inside, I'm glad that I'm alive. I'm glad that my mom give me this chance.

Either way the abortion takes place way before it can even have an opinion so it doesn't matter.

It matters that you're taking away the right of a human being to experience life.

 

[Pegg]

Unless they need a blood transfusion. Then we should just let them die, right?

you should educate yourself on the alternatives....there are plenty of non-blood therapys in use right now.

but dont let the facts stand in the way of a good story.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

................ so........... you do recognise that your first paragragh contains, or could contain ethical issues?

Of course. For instance, it's unethical to demand wages for work we didn't do.

Could I ask, what ethical issues forced you to leave employments in your past? What did you do? May I ask that?

One company I worked at was bought by a company with a division that did warplane rearmament in Kuwait for the US Air Force (this was during the Iraq War). I disagreed with the war and didn't want to be part ofa company that was involved in it, so I quit.

At another company I worked at, I felt pressured to declare that a road met design standards that it didn't, so again, I quit.

There have also been plenty of times when a job opportunity has come along but I passed it up because of something I objected to in either the position or the employer.

 

[oldbadger]

This might interest all....... a small selection of www headlines covering the lifesavers who won't do abortions. We all need to ask yourselves 'How long could I do these terminations for..... without cracking up?'

Nurses Against Abortion Suing N.J. Hospital Requiring They Assist ...
newyork.cbslocal.com/.../nurses-against-abortion-suing-n-j-hospital-requ...‎
Nov 7, 2011 - A dozen nurses in New Jersey have filed suit against the hospital where they work because the nurses don't want to assist during abortions.

Pro-Life Nurses Win Victory, Don't Have to Assist in Abortions ...
Pro-Life Nurses Win Victory, Don't Have to Assist in Abortions | LifeNews.com
Sep 12, 2012 - Pro-Life Nurses Win Victory, Don't Have to Assist in Abortions ... agreeing to participate in abortions against their moral and religious objections ...


Hospital lets nurses opt out of abortions - WorldNetDaily
www.wnd.com/2013/02/hospital-lets-nurses-opt-out-of-abortions/‎
Feb 12, 2013 - The original case against Mount Sinai Medical Center explained: “Compelling Mrs. DeCarlo to assist in this abortion against her religious ...

Doctors' anti-abortion views could impact on women's access to ...
Latest news, world news, sport and comment from the Guardian | theguardian.com | The Guardian › News › World news › Abortion‎
Jul 18, 2011 - Concern about termination services is rising, with fewer doctors willing to perform the procedure, DoH says.

A
The doctor: Why I'm so passionately against abortion | Mail Online
The doctor: Why I'm so passionately against abortion | Mail Online
May 7, 2007 - She feels that abortion on demand has come to be seen as an easy option for ... instead into the hands of unscrupulous unlicensed surgeons.

 

[oldbadger]

This was a repeatr of the above....... sorry

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

My hope is that they make a choice that's not based on selfishness.

It doesn't really matter what the choice is based on, it's her body and future and mental well being.

My hope here will that she would find the compassion within herself not to punish the child for the sins of the father and so extend her mental distress. I know of one lesbian who was raped and made the choice not to abort her child. She even brought ultrasound pictures to school to show to us.

And? she had the right to carry on with the pregnancy and I support her right to do that. Not everyone who has an abortion feels distressed afterwards. I would hope that the woman who has been forcibly impregnated makes the best choice for herself.

And that's quite sad. My dad doesn't love me, abused me and than abandoned my mom and I. Sometimes I wish I were dead, but deep down inside, I'm glad that I'm alive. I'm glad that my mom give me this chance.

Good for you, you can have that opinion because you are an independent person, when you are an embryo, fetus, zygote, it's the woman's opinion that matters since it's happening to her body and future.

It matters that you're taking away the right of a human being to experience life.

It doesn't have a right it's not a person

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It doesn't really matter what the choice is based on, it's her body and future and mental well being.


And? she had the right to carry on with the pregnancy and I support her right to do that. Not everyone who has an abortion feels distressed afterwards. I would hope that the woman who has been forcibly impregnated makes the best choice for herself.


Good for you, you can have that opinion because you are an independent person, when you are an embryo, fetus, zygote, it's the woman's opinion that matters since it's happening to her body and future.


It doesn't have a right it's not a person

I've said all that I can say to you about this subject. Quite frankly, I find your views on this to be pretty disgusting and there's nothing more I can say to you about it. I'm not interested in reading anything more from you about this.

 

[oldbadger]

Of course. For instance, it's unethical to demand wages for work we didn't do.

Who says these medical staff demand wages for abortions? That's a strange idea, isn't it?

One company I worked at was bought by a company with a division that did warplane rearmament in Kuwait for the US Air Force (this was during the Iraq War). I disagreed with the war and didn't want to be part ofa company that was involved in it, so I quit.

That's a bit like leaving a stationary company because its owned by hutchinson-wompoa .......OMG...! what mobile 'phone have you got? Where do you shop? What newspaper do you buy? I tell you, the chances are you're going to have to do some more quitting, one way or t'other.

At another company I worked at, I felt pressured to declare that a road met design standards that it didn't, so again, I quit.

Oh, that's where you and I differ....... I would have declared the bloody thing unfit, and then nailed the sods in County and Tribunal Courts if they as much as sniffed at me......

There have also been plenty of times when a job opportunity has come along but I passed it up because of something I objected to in either the position or the employer.

Well...... that's what lots of Docs and nurses etc are doing, only they are insisting on continuing their duties under their pro-oaths and nailing hospital and heath care dictators in the courts. And they are winning in many countries.

Very few people like dictators........... true?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I've said all that I can say to you about this subject. Quite frankly, I find your views on this to be pretty disgusting and there's nothing more I can say to you about it. I'm not interested in reading anything more from you about this.

same here

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This might interest all....... a small selection of www headlines covering the lifesavers who won't do abortions. We all need to ask yourselves 'How long could I do these terminations for..... without cracking up?'

Not everybody is cut out for every job. I have some sympathy for people who do a job for years and suddenly have to deal with a change in their duties... Though at the same time that an employer shouldn't defer to the wants of its employees to the point where it hampers delivery of services to the people being served.

Some people have ethical objections to working on Sunday. My ethics would probably stop me from ever working in a casino. It's up to the individual to find a job that suits their wants and needs; it's not up to the employer to cater to the whims of its employees at the expense of its clients or customers.

 

[Willamena]

So....... if you were the boss of Canadian-health, what would you do if doctors and nurses refused to take part in abortion operations?

It doesn't have to be up to him. We have the Ombudsman.

If an employee feels that they are being asked to do something that is unethical, they can approach the Provincial Ombudsman to help resolve the issue with their employer.

 

[oldbadger]

It doesn't have to be up to him. We have the Ombudsman.

If an employee feels that they are being asked to do something that is unethical, they can approach the Provincial Ombudsman to help resolve the issue with their employer.

Hi..... Ok...... Provincial Ombudsmen...... In the UK we have all sorts of 'em.

But in this particular scenario another member was prepared to (eventually) fire those medical staff if they would not effect abortions. Most health workers are not quitters, and would fight their corner.

Whether abortions are unethical is not necessarily the question, in the event that a medic refuses to carry on carrying them out, or assisting them. It can be a build up of tension, stress and trauma where the medic begins to have 'flash-backs' to remember when a particular aborted foetus looked like somebody, or moved in a certain way, or ........... whatever. Post traumatic stress disorder does not just appear after combat situations, I guess.....?