What's the Deal with Evolution?

[Wildswanderer]

I'm not so sure, Mestemia. He could be some sort of vegetable.
He might want to avoid wooded ares -- a squirrel might tuck him away for the Winter.

I kill and eat squirrels.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Faith: not wanting to know what is true." --Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Well anyone that would listen to Nietzsche isn't too bright ...

 

[Wildswanderer]

You're seriously positing magic as an "explanation," and find that more reasonable than natural mechanism?

Lol, naturalism has no explanation.

 

[Windwalker]

Here you go, take your pick:

"Faith is the effort to believe what your common sense tells you is not true."[
--Elbert Hubbard

False

"Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime."
--Rich Bennett

Ignorance

Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich

Again ignorance of what faith is.

"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
--Ambrose Bierce

Speaking of which.... Speaking of areas you have poor or limited ideas of, and proclaiming with confidence, is ignorance as a flag of pride.

"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate."
--F.M. Knowles

And calling all faith one thing by the antics of children, is laziness too. Pot calling the kettle black, in other words.

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."
--Dan Barker

Intellectual laziness.

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ***; he is actually ill."
--H.L. Mencken

It may be defined that way, by those who are too lazy to investigate it properly. I hear no clear and realistic thought in this statement of ignorance.

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."
--Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

False. It is wanting to know what is true, but beyond the human mind to grasp.

Quote time for me. What really is faith? What is behind it all?

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

That's faith, not these low-hanging fruit definitions you quoted from.

 

[Valjean]

Richard Dawkins views on religion and faith, is hardly a voice of authority on the subject of religion! I place his opinions as not any better than just some armchair philosopher opining his views about God on any Internet forum full of neo atheists out there, not having any idea what he is really talking about. I heard a modern NT scholar refer to him as the "Village Atheist", who's "Not talking about any God I believe in". Dawkins is a biologist, not a philosopher.

Evolution is not a threat to faith. Ignorance is.

But his beliefs and explanations are reasonable and logical. Your alternative religious beliefs are not.

 

[McBell]

False

Ignorance

Again ignorance of what faith is.

Speaking of which.... Speaking of areas you have poor or limited ideas of, and proclaiming with confidence, is ignorance as a flag of pride.

And calling all faith one thing by the antics of children, is laziness too. Pot calling the kettle black, in other words.

Intellectual laziness.

It may be defined that way, by those who are too lazy to investigate it properly. I hear no clear and realistic thought in this statement of ignorance.

False. It is wanting to know what is true, but beyond the human mind to grasp.

Now that is a whole lot of faith you got going on there.....

Quote time for me. What really is faith? What is behind it all?

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

That's faith, not this low hanging fruit definitions you quoted.

You really should quote the WHOLE paragraph:

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. This insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms— this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong in the ranks of devoutly religious men.
​

And then the next two paragraphs:

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own—a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.

It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature.
​

Einstein awe full text​

 

[Valjean]

[

Lol, naturalism has no explanation.

Define "naturalism."
Are you saying nothing can be explained, then?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Evolution threatens their faith. They confuse how they read scripture as the same thing as belief in God. They can't tell the difference, and so if you question their interpretations of scripture, you question the existence of God in their minds. It's really not any more complex than that, IMO.

And that’s not correct for this believer: I used to accept Darwin’s view on evolution before I met Jesus Christ, after that I rejected it not only that but apparently evolutionist view has changed from 30 years ago. What I’ve experienced since then is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ which changed the way I view life. As for me, there is Truth and Error, God has proven the Bible to be the Truth, He gave me His Spirit and opened my understanding to the Scriptures. It isn’t a matter of being threatened or my relationship to God changing or any of that. God tells me through His Word that there will be a deception in the last days to deceive people and it comes through Satan and demonic spiritual forces. So as for myself, I’m going to take those thoughts that are contrary to God’s Word captive and make them obedient to Christ.

 

[Windwalker]

We aren't spiritual animals. That's new age nonsense.

You yourself said we are spiritual. Are you New Age? I'm not.

We are spiritual creatures. We have a biological body. That biological body is considered, correctly so, as an animal lifeform.

If we are not an animal species, then pray tell me what are we? E.T.s? All lifeforms on this plant, are either vegetable or animal forms. There isn't another group for humans outside of this.

And it leads to the Peter Singer type nonsense of making some chimps equal to humans. It's an animal rightests dream, and I know because I've had these conversations with them.

I sense it bothers you to consider that other animal life forms outside ourselves, are actually cousins to us? Why?? I don't understand that. What bothers you about this? Does it make you feel smaller or something?

The whole animal rights agenda is rooted in a Darwinian evolutionary worldview.

Oh, I see. It's the whole politiciation thing about "animal rights" that you are reacting against. No, this is not a philosophical or political thing.

It's basic bloodline testing stuff to see who is related to whom. We do that all the time with our DNA testings on Ancestry.com and other sites. It shows us how we are related to each other. This isn't politics, it's science. Science does the same thing examine DNA from other species, and guess what? Just like on Ancestry when we find out we're 2nd cousins to someone, we find out that squirrel over there is actually related to us too, just a few trillion or so biological parents early! He'd be like a 2 millionth cousin, instead of someone who is a lot closer to us on the evolutionary tree.

So I gather from this, your resistance to this knowledge is because of an identity thing? You don't want to appear as "animal rights liberal" or something like that to your friends? I cannot think of many reasons why this should be bothersome, other that that natural response of not wanting to not fit in with the group. It's all just verifiable with our cousins the chimps, as it is with my cousins in Georgia. You trust that don't you?

If all creatures and plants are merely evolved species, then one is not “superior” to another—just different.... a rose and a scorpion are as valuable and worthy of care as a human baby or a bull.

Okay, yes. I understand this as a basis to resist this knowledge. It is a very anthropocentric view of ourselves and the world and our foundational relationship with it, that is at risk. This is very common. I think all of us experience that at first, to some degree or another.

I remember for myself, as someone who had built his understanding of the world on the view that we are the peak, the pinnacle, the crowning jewel of his glorious creation. There was a shift that occurred for me, where I suddenly saw how that believing in evolution did not reduce man. It was a shock to my system, to actually realize it raised the beauty of human being, a bright shining diamond, unique and bright, in a vast, endless Beautiful shining lights of each and every one of God's creations. It made us more special! Not because we were better than the other lights, but because we were "beautifully and wonderfully", on this vast, expansive tree of life, that comes from God.

That is why I think evolution glorifies God. It is God creating, and we are in it. Praise the Lord!, as we'd say in church.

 

[Wildswanderer]

[

Define "naturalism."
Are you saying nothing can be explained, then?

Ultimately, if you can not explain why you and the universe exist, you have really explained nothing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

He'd be like a 2 millionth cousin, instead of someone whos is a like closer on the evolutionary tree.

Only he isn't. He's no relation at all because God created him to be a squirrel and then go back to the dirt, but you are made in the image of Yahweh and made to live forever in God's presence.

 

[Windwalker]

Only he isn't. He's no relation at all because God created him to be a squirrel and then go back to the dirt, but you are made in the image of Yahweh and made to live forever in God's presence.

Do you trust what you find on Ancestry.com if you do a DNA test and it tells you and other people 2nd cousins, or 5th cousins, etc.? If not, why not? If so, then yes we are related to all animals on this planet.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Do you trust what you find on Ancestry.com if you do a DNA test and it tells you and other people 2nd cousins, or 5th cousins, etc.? If not, why not? If so, then yes we are related to all animals on this planet.

Um yeah, because that DNA is all from humans.
Even the difference between human and ape DNA is broad.

 

[Windwalker]

Um yeah, because that DNA is all from humans.
Even the difference between human and ape DNA is broad.

The DNA difference is 98.2% the same, 1.8% different. Why do you say that is broad? Now, between a human and a squirrel, at this stage in evolution might be further down the ancestry tree with only like 50% the same, as we find in chickens.

Refer to this: What Is a Homologous Trait?

 

[Valjean]

Ultimately, if you can not explain why you and the universe exist, you have really explained nothing.

"Nothing" covers a lot of ground. So If I can't explain why the universe exists I can't explain how a four-stroke engine works?

It seems to me that science, though it still can't explain the causes and mechanisms of the Big Bang, explains a great deal more than religious doctrine. Religion "explains" nothing, it just attributes agency.

Only he isn't. He's no relation at all because God created him to be a squirrel and then go back to the dirt, but you are made in the image of Yahweh and made to live forever in God's presence.

And this is entirely based on folklore, with no actual supporting evidence at all -- except your faith, of course.

 

[Valjean]

Um yeah, because that DNA is all from humans.
Even the difference between human and ape DNA is broad.

LOL! -- Human DNA is ape DNA.

 

[ratiocinator]

Ultimately, if you can not explain why you and the universe exist, you have really explained nothing.

Why the double standards? Goddidit explains nothing.

 

[viole]

That may be the key point, the idea that their ancestors might have been apes seems to horrify some people to no end.

I wonder how they would react when they find out that we are still apes.

ciao

- viole

 

[Valjean]

I wonder how they would react when they find out that we are still apees?

They'd probably fling poo at us.

 

[Windwalker]

They'd probably fling poo at us.

But because we have modern technologies, we fling poo at each other using our keyboards on the Internet instead.