What's the Deal with Evolution?

[Wildswanderer]

I had no idea. All the stuff they teach in science class doesn't attribute creation to evolution at all. It is almost as if you have no idea what the theory is saying and are just repeating a straw man argument that is perpetuated on the internet.

And yet I have people on here telling me evolution is responsible for creation. Go figure.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And you can believe that. But why must so many Christians argue with other folks about it?

Because it's fun?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Haven't you ever seen "Divine accidents" occur in your life? Why couldn't that happen in nature too? Isn't God capable of creating through evolution through these happy 'accidents'?

I'm not sure what a divine accident is. I know what a miracle is.
God can create anyway he chooses. But he makes it clear that we didn't get here by way of the zoo.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm not sure what a divine accident is. I know what a miracle is.
God can create anyway he chooses. But he makes it clear that we didn't get here by way of the zoo.

By divine accident, ask any Christian who speaks of miracles how God "just happened" to bring this person into their life, or this event happened at just the right time, and so forth. Seemingly random events that play part in God's will in their life. Now take those "accidents" and consider evolution as the same thing. In other words, Christians don't seem to have a problem seeing God in seemily disconnected events as "how the Spirit moves". But they can't accept that in evoution? It can't be because they don't believe God's will is done through 'accidents'.

As far as how God actually created humans, the story in Genesis does not offer scientific details. I believe in God. But I don't make the error of reading Genesis as a scientific explanation. It is speaking is poetic terms, of something that certainly at the time it was written, would be beyond their comprehension. It's still beyond our comprehension today, even as science is able to demonstrate how all species on this earth are interconnected with one another. And why not? They did all come from the same Source, did they not?

 

[leroy]

Disclaimer: I could myself be considered a kind of creationist, so I'm not here to rag on them!

But what is with this mostly Christian obsession (although I have seen it in the Muslim world too) with the theory of evolution? Aren't there better things to wrangle about? Healthier things to focus on?

Because evolution is atheist most important flag and represent the biggest (and most recent) victory over creationism

I am not saying that atheists have won the “war” but they certainly won an important battle,

But in the other hand theist have also won a few battles, based on my judgment theism is winning the war

 

[Rival]

Because evolution is atheist most important flag and represent the biggest (and most recent) victory over creationism

I am not saying that atheists have won the “war” but they certainly won an important battle,

But in the other hand theist have also won a few battles, based on my judgment theism is winning the war

Why is it some kind of a 'war' to you, though? Is this a healthy mindset?

(Or were you speaking from a hypothetical POV?)

 

[leroy]

Why is it some kind of a 'war' to you, though? Is this a healthy mindset?

(Or were you speaking from a hypothetical POV?)

I view it as some sort of intellectual war, both parts are trying to show that their view is correct, both presents their arguments, both celebrate (or cry) when relevant discoveries are being made

 

[Wildswanderer]

By divine accident, ask any Christian who speaks of miracles how God "just happened" to bring this person into their life, or this event happened at just the right time, and so forth. Seemingly random events that play part in God's will in their life. Now take those "accidents" and consider evolution as the same thing. In other words, Christians don't seem to have a problem seeing God in seemily disconnected events as "how the Spirit moves". But they can't accept that in evoution? It can't be because they don't believe God's will is done through 'accidents'.

As far as how God actually created humans, the story in Genesis does not offer scientific details. I believe in God. But I don't make the error of reading Genesis as a scientific explanation. It is speaking is poetic terms, of something that certainly at the time it was written, would be beyond their comprehension. It's still beyond our comprehension today, even as science is able to demonstrate how all species on this earth are interconnected with one another. And why not? They did all come from the same Source, did they not?

Yes they all came from God creating, but they aren't the same at all.
Animals were not breathed into by God. They are not made in his image like people are.
It's not a small difference.
As far as how God moves, none of it is accidental. He inhabits all of creation. A miracle isn't random at at it's just the opposite. Evolution is built on the idea of truly random causation.

 

[Heyo]

I'ld say that one has to make those three basal assumptions even only to get out of bed in the morning, or to cross the streets, or to do anything at all and live to see another day.

Imo, these aren't the exclusive territory of science at all. These are fundamental assumptions required for doing anything in the universe. Even my cat has to make these assumptions when it is trying to catch a mouse.

As I see it, those 3 don't just underpin science. It underpins everything we do.

And yet, billions of Hindus believe we live in mara, an illusion. Some people believe in the simulation hypothesis. And all theists, by definition, believe in magic.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes they all came from God creating, but they aren't the same at all.

Not at all the same? Bilateral body plan seems very much the same; left and right side two eyes, two ears, two arms, to legs,etc. We share the same basic nervous systems, same basic skeletal structures, bones are made of the same stuff, skin is made of the same stuff, and on, and on. They are very much the same, just like you have tall people and short people, all are the same, while having differences. Surely you can recognize this?

Animals were not breathed into by God. They are not made in his image like people are.
It's not a small difference.

So, you're saying that one verse, "God created man in his own image" as your justification to throw out science? Could it not be that perhaps there is more than one way to understand that verse? What exactly does it mean? God is an upright walking bipedal creature, and doesn't crawl around on all fours like a dog or a cat? Surely not.

Does it mean higher intelligence? Self-awareness? Or some other interior quality that we see different in ourselves than from what we can see in other animals? Tool use? Many species do that? Socialization and family bonds? Again, that's in the animal kingdom outside of our species. Creativity? Animals demonstrate that too. Can you be specific what "image" means? Certainly, it can't mean biological, since we are clearly related biologically to all vertebrate animals.

As far as how God moves, none of it is accidental. He inhabits all of creation. A miracle isn't random at at it's just the opposite. Evolution is built on the idea of truly random causation.

No, evolution does not teach "truly random causation". But again, what seems random is part of how order arises out of seeming chaos. Chaos theory points to this. What appears random to us, actually is part of what gives rise to a system of order.

You are aware that a great many Christians don't struggle with this in their faith, that they see God and evolution as completely compatible? To me, that isn't because they know the science better, but because they have room in their faith to allow their ideas about God to be informed by changes in understandings of the natural world, such as the earth not being the center of the solar systems and all of creation anymore. You don't have an issue with that being true in your faith do you?

 

[F1fan]

Because peace does not come from compromise when the issue means more than being "right".
From my perspective, science has become a substitute for religion in the minds of many.....

If you are correct I suggest it is because religion has become jealous of the success and accuracy and respect science has, and it's tried to pass itself off as being certain.

{quote]I would like people to see that science is not as reliable or as factual as it claims to be ....and is not averse to fudging the truth in order to appear to be "right".[/quote]
Science is an endeavor that evolves as data is collected and instruments and methods are improved. But give examples of this fraud you're suggesting. Fudging the truth is a big accusation. Explain.

And be sure to do some self-reflection and make sure it's not your personal bias against science that's guiding your thoughts.

I want people to know how important "faith" and "belief" are in supporting what is an unprovable theory.

Like that any sort of arbitrary god exists?

If its going to be a "religion" verses "science" argument based on facts, then I want people to see that there is little difference between them....each requires faith and belief with little in the way of concrete facts.....one just can't admit it.

The conflict comes from theists who have some unsettled beef with science. As an old friend of Beliefnet used to say "You can have your religion, but get your science right."

 

[Wildswanderer]

Does it mean higher intelligence? Self-awareness? Or some other interior quality that we see different in ourselves than from what we can see in other animals? Tool use? Many species do that? Socialization and family bonds? Again, that's in the animal kingdom outside of our species. Creativity? Animals demonstrate that too. Can you be specific what "image" means? Certainly, it can't mean biological, since we are clearly related biologically to all vertebrate animals.

It means we have a eternal soul. And it certainly isn't just one verse .
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. ” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

See the difference? Man is in one catagory and animals in another.



Genesis 9:6
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.

And speaking of Jesus:
Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

Nothing about this being true of animals.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

And yet I have people on here telling me evolution is responsible for creation. Go figure.

It isn't responsible for creation. People that do not understand science, make that mistake all the time.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am informed by the natural world, and it screams "creation" not random mutations causing an accidental process with no rymthe or reason.

What is your favorite evidence that objectively demonstrates creation?

 

[Rival]

I am informed by the natural world, and it screams "creation" not random mutations causing an accidental process with no rymthe or reason.

The Ancient Egyptians thought dung-beetles emerged spontaneously from balls of dung, because they couldn't see what went on in there.

Nothing is so easy.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What is your favorite evidence that objectively demonstrates creation?

Everything from DNA to black holes. To suppose any of it was accidental is absolutely absurd.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Everything from DNA to black holes. To suppose any of it was accidental is absolutely absurd.

Regarding those, what evidence tells you that it is absurd to consider anything other than that they were created?

I am looking for details, the reasoning used to draw the conclusion and the steps that show that those things are created and not the result of natural laws.

 

[Viker]

Because evolution is atheist most important flag and represent the biggest (and most recent) victory over creationism

I am not saying that atheists have won the “war” but they certainly won an important battle,

But in the other hand theist have also won a few battles, based on my judgment theism is winning the war

There's a "war"? This may be the problem.

 

[Viker]

One of the impressions I am getting is that others believe evolution is an atheist doctrine of sorts. This is sadly misguided.

 

[ratiocinator]

Everything from DNA to black holes. To suppose any of it was accidental is absolutely absurd.

Why? And if all those things need a creator to explain them, what explains the creator? Was it just there by accident?