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What's the deal with the Roma?

Kirran

Premium Member
While it doesn't really get much press, the Roma minority in Europe is actually one of the most marginalised around. They make up around 12 million people, concentrated in Eastern European countries like Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and so on, but are also found in both long-standing and immigrant populations in Western Europe, and immigrants are found in the USA, Latin America, etc.

Why is it that this persecution and discrimination is so entrenched and widespread?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
My thought is that many don't want to fully settle down and try to fully integrate into the country they live in. And if they try to integrate, there will be some dislike for them because of their past reputation of engaging in shady practices and lifestyles. I think they are getting more integrated in recent times and in the future that will increase and they will be less marginalized.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
And if they try to integrate, there will be some dislike for them because of their past reputation of engaging in shady practices and lifestyles.

You made me laugh during the nine days. Totally not okay.

Gypsies tend to be romanticised when you don't encounter them, when you encounter them you usually call the police.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Time and socialism cannot fight the kind of inertia that has been leveled against the Roma. Racism was born in Europe.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Because they are known for being thieves, frauds, charlatans, marrying their children off too young, poaching and other forms of vandalism. They let their horses roam free and their children run wild. In books and other media they are portrayed as hapless victims, but the reality is far different as anyone who has encountered them knows. Also, from a pre-enlightenment European point of view, they were known for things like divination, paganism, necromancy and all manner of other things prohibited by God - this won't have gone for for improving their image.

Second, we try to integrate them but they don't want to. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" doesn't seem to apply to them, even though it should. They marginalise themselves in this way.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
There's a local TV network that had a Roma programme, where they interviewed some Roma one on one. One of them said she went to prison for many years(over a decade) and you could almost guess people were saying "I knew it" in front of their tv. But what she did was go to prisons as a teacher. She had seen how lack of education leads to crime.

I've also seen a woman in their traditional dress as a kindergarten teacher for autists, blind etc. So it's not all "negative", when you meet them.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The problem is that those who don't do anything are kind off a invisible minority. They exist, they are somewhere but you will never ever encounter them.

And then there are those who you will encounter. May it be in the shopping area where they are begging as crippled people and when their shift is over suddenly heal and walk home.
May it be on the parking lot of a supermarket where they will "talk"(usually they don't speak your local language and will just say something like "hmmm!", not even kidding) to you and pretend to be from some kind of charity. The saddest part is that you then see a list of people who actually gave money to this person who is so oh so obviously not an official member of a charity organisation. After some time the police will arrive and the person you just saw magically disappeared.
What else, oh well now you even encounter car window washers in Germany. Though it is not often. If you don't pay because they oh so obviously forced their services upon you they will attack your car or you.

And there is the point when a gypsy... clan(?) arrives in a town or city. Local politicians usually know what's going to happen but as soon as they want them to move on or get special police surveillance the national anti-racism brigade will wreak havoc so usually nothing is done by the police or politicians.
Then the locals will attend to their safety themselves and reinforce their fences and gates. And after a while you will hear stories that the metal fences and gates vanished.
When the politicians do something they give those clans houses funded by the public. These houses usually end up completely messed up and are not taken care off. Try to imagine that some people just take a dump somewhere random. Than imagine more of those people. Also there are proven cases that when they move on from those houses that every single gramme of metal has been removed by "someone".
A reporter team in Germany actually filmed people taking their dump off their balcony from the 8th floor unto the ground. Its like magic.

And also kinda funny a German reporter team went to... somewhere on the Balkan(probably Romania or Bulgaria but not sure) to investigate false rumours about Gypsies there. Well they encountered a local Gypsy Chief and quite some kids who they then interviewed. Apparently the locals have this rumour going on that they catch local dogs and eat them. Which the Chief quickly denied by deflecting that those Gypsies who eat dogs live in X, Y or Z.
But then a kid from the crowd said "but we do eat them" which immediately results in him getting slapped.

Its like comedy if you forget that its real life.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I think we should have a look at the actual situation among the Romani people, both historically and currently in Europe.

During the plagues, the Romani had a lower death rate due to their strong customs for cleanliness and hygiene, combined (I suspect) with their nomadic lifestyle reducing their contact with rodents. So, of course, people assumed they were in league with the Devil, and anti-Romani sentiment really got going during this period as a result - the anti-settlement laws began. This is similar to what happened to the Jews in this period. In fact, it is estimated that the lower death rates among Jews due to their cleanliness was more than offset by the numbers massacred by those assuming they were in league with the Devil. I expect the same is true of Romanis.

So discrimination against them quickly became entrenched. They were hunted for sport in Saxony, and in many European countries killing a Romani wasn't illegal. In fact, France, Prussia and other countries used to hang them. In much of Eastern Europe they were enslaved to the landed aristocracy. Young Romani were branded like livestock. They were generally emancipated during the mid-1800s, about the same time as the Africans were emancipated in many other countries. Nevertheless, entrenched discrimination of course remained, as with the Africans, combined with the damage it had done to their society and culture, again the same as with Africans in the USA.

This prejudice continued well into the modern era at an institutionalised level. Most European countries have carried out forced sterilisation programs on the Romani. They have been denied the rights to land and the rights to work, excluded from urban areas, and so on. Forced sterilisation went on in Norway until the 1970s, in Czechoslovakia until 1991 and so on. During the Holocaust many Romani were killed. Estimates range from 220,000 to 2 million. Even the lowest estimate would make it one of the largest mass slaughters in history.

In the present-day, there is still massive discrimination, often even carried out by state agencies. In Romania many Romani live in slums on the edges of towns, often because the town governments evict them from their homes in the town, where they had jobs, lives, education and so on, for no reason other than their ethnicity. All Romania's main political parties slander them. They are hugely stereotyped as lazy, dirty and so on. In some examples, the Romanian townspeople cheer on the town mayor as he authorises the building of walls around Romani areas. Nobody bats an eye.

They are generally described as being an endemically-criminal community. People say that 'they' are thieves, beggars, whatever. Yes, crime rates are higher among them than the average in many areas, and there are big problems in their community with Romani gang lords who keep Romani children locked in sheds at night and have them pickpocket all day. And yes, there are big issues in some Romani communities with child marriage. But saying that Romani are thieves and child-abusers and so on is like saying that 'blacks are criminals' because the crime rate within the African-American community is higher than the national average. A lot of the rhetoric against the Romani today is basically the same as the rhetoric against them, and against the Jews, just leading up the Holocaust.

Many Romani do become involved in petty theft now and then in Eastern Europe. When you are forced to the edges of towns, into slums, out of work, when people spit on you in the street, it is hard to get work. So it's starve or steal. There are Romanian Romani people who come over on a coach to London, sleep in doorways or under bridges, and do begging, or try to find work on building sites if they can, so they can bring money back home to build a house for their children. Because they can't get work in Romania, because people really do dislike them. It's very common for an Eastern European employer to throw out a job application with a Romani name. Obviously not universal, but very common.

But Romani are murdered in hate crimes pretty commonly, they get beaten and raped by antiziganist groups in Eastern Europe, they get spat on and attacked in Western Europe too.

For many centuries, the Romani have been marginalised, isolated, excluded, and so no wonder they often feel entirely disenfranchised from the state apparatus. This sentiment can lead to greater crime rates, and less social cohesion. Obviously. Continued discrimination, stereotyping and victim-blaming is only perpetuating this vicious circle.

Final point, on integration. This seems to mean different things. If we mean economic integration, or political integration, sure. That needs to be done. They need to become less marginalised, and measures need to be put in place which can really work to improve their genuine access to education, their living conditions, their awareness of issues like environmentalism and the use of contraceptives. And also to improve their ability to become politically engaged and establish representation. But cultural integration, as I suspect many people mean? The loss of their heritage, their identity, their language or dialect and their customs? Why should they? They have been in Europe for almost a thousand years. In the UK for over five hundred years. Why on Earth should they be forced to lose their heritage and customs to be replaced by that of the dominant ethnicity? Obviously if they want to settle, become stationary, live in a flat or a house, settle in an urban area or wherever, that's fine. But if they don't want to, there's no reason they should. If they want to keep living as travellers, that's perfectly OK, that's their traditional lifestyle, and governments here in the UK and elsewhere should keep working to make sure there are adequate provisions for them to do so if they want.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
For many centuries, the Romani have been marginalised, isolated, excluded

lol no
Most Gypsies lived behind the Iron Curtain where they were collectivised like everyone else.

It simply didn't work.


Why on Earth should they be forced to lose their heritage and customs to be replaced by that of the dominant ethnicity?

Uhm for starters to pay taxes like anyone else has to if they work.
And then how about education? Your kid will have bad grades if you move every year, half year or couple of months.
 

Kirran

Premium Member

They were enslaved for centuries. They have been denied settlement rights. They have been fair game for slaughter for most of their history in Europe. Huge numbers were killed in the Holocaust. They get beaten, murdered and spat on in the street. They are now herded into slums in Eastern Europe.

This is definitely marginalisation and persecution, I'm not sure how you can disagree with that. If it isn't, what would be?

Most Gypsies lived behind the Iron Curtain where they were collectivised like everyone else.

It simply didn't work.

They were far better employed under communism than since. Because under the current system it is much easier for people to express their prejudice, of course riled up by bad economic conditions.

Nevertheless, communism in Eastern Europe was generally pretty bad. I don't think we should be looking to collectivism as something that really should have been expected to solve anything.

Uhm for starters to pay taxes like anyone else has to if they work.
And then how about education? Your kid will have bad grades if you move every year, half year or couple of months.

I wasn't addressing the nomadic tradition there, which is a minority among Romani today, which does carry its own issues. In this country at least (the UK), the most Romanchal who are nomadic will settle for a few years do their kids can get schooling. No problem. I think that kind of thing should be encouraged.

As for taxes, there are different costs to living nomadically, and so different taxation is often involved.

Anyway, I was referring to language, to the way they dress, the food they eat, other cultural things. I don't see why they should have to culturally integrate and lose that. Any more than Jews, who are also a very long-standing minority in Europe, should have to give up their own culture and heritage in order to live in European countries. If they don't want to. If they want to, or it happens as a natural process, then obviously that's OK.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
lol no
Most Gypsies lived behind the Iron Curtain where they were collectivised like everyone else.

It simply didn't work.




Uhm for starters to pay taxes like anyone else has to if they work.
And then how about education? Your kid will have bad grades if you move every year, half year or couple of months.

It must be unusual to find a people a Jew can look down on.
I would have thought equality and status was universal in the death camps.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
I would have thought equality and status was universal in the death camps.
Oh hell no. The Holocaust couldn't even have happened if that were true. Simple petty hatreds like those being expressed in this thread are what kept neighbor from defending neighbor wherever the Nazis went. Who's going to get shot just to defend a Jew/Gay/Gypsy?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Flankerl, the Roma in my country don't move around in gangs begging and pillaging. There are many famous singers here who are Roma:

 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
What country are you from, Jumi? If you don't mind me asking.
Finland. When we have beggars they are always from Romania or Bulgaria. There are clans here too. Yes, some of them are associated with criminal activity and there is still racism towards them partly because of those groups.
 
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