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What's the difference between "evolution" and "adaptation"?

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Over the years I've seen some creationists attempt to dismiss observed cases of populations evolving by saying "that's adaptation, not evolution". Specific to this forum, one creationist in particular seems to enjoy repeating this talking point quite a bit (she knows who she is).

So in the interest of mutual understanding, I think it would be helpful if this creationist (or any other who cares to give it a try) would compare and contrast "evolution" and "adaptation". To be clear, I'm talking "compare and contrast" in the sense that most of us are used to from our K-12 days. Something like.....

Evolution is ____________. It occurs when _________________ and takes place via _______________. Examples of evolution would be __________, ___________, and ___________.

Adaptation on the other hand is ______________. It occurs when _______________ and takes place via _______________. Examples of adaptation would be ____________, _____________, and ____________.

The primary differences between evolution and adaptation are:

1. ____________________

2. ____________________

3. ____________________
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Crossing the species boundary. We can tell a pug and chihuahua are related because they could hook up and produce offspring. And we know man is not related to the monkeys because we can't hook up with apes and produce offspring, no matter how much we might want to.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Crossing the species boundary. We can tell a pug and chihuahua are related because they could hook up and produce offspring. And we know man is not related to the monkeys because we can't hook up with apes and produce offspring, no matter how much we might want to.
Actually, it should be genetically possible. We've just never really tried. The degree of chromosomal similarity is roughly equal to what you see between all equines, so it should work.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Crossing the species boundary. We can tell a pug and chihuahua are related because they could hook up and produce offspring. And we know man is not related to the monkeys because we can't hook up with apes and produce offspring, no matter how much we might want to.
First of all, ring species. There are certain Song Sparrows that can't reproduce with other certain Song Sparrows for this very reason.
Or are you suggesting that these are all somehow unrelated?
ensatina.png

See the two at the bottom (if the chart is positioned the way I think it is, someone can correct me if need be.) Yeah those two can produce viable offspring with every other lizard on that picture but can't do that with each other.
Secondly a pug and chihuahua are the exact same species. So no **** they can reproduce viable offspring. They're both freaking wolves! Both were created by man. Ever hear of the domestication process?

Mules are the result of horses and donkeys shacking up. You have ligers and tigons, so species can cross produce. Zoos have been exploiting this for literally decades now. It's just often infertile offspring.There are a few exceptions, but usually cross species reproduction isn't viable. That doesn't mean they aren't related though.
Again, see ring species.
Not that I would condone it, but a human could probably produce viable offspring with other apes.
 
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Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Actually, it should be genetically possible. We've just never really tried. The degree of chromosomal similarity is roughly equal to what you see between all equines, so it should work.

Nah, they'd have tried it.
 

Cobol

Code Jockey
Evolution is the development of a species or organism from its original or primitive state to its present or specialized state via natural selection whereby organisms adapt to their environment.

Darwin articulated his theory without knowing the exact mechanism by which variations occurs. It wouldn’t be until Watson and Crick’s discovery of DNA in the 1950s that evolutionary biologists would finally have the answer.The advent of genetics is the single most important thing to happen to evolutionary biology since Darwin’s theory first appeared. DNA is universal to all life, its presence strongly suggests that all creatures on Earth evolved from a common ancestor. It also explains how the proliferation of genetic mutations, combined with the processes of natural selection, enables evolution to happen. Ultimately, DNA is the engine that drives evolution.

The form and structure of deer, moose, horses, and zebras are strikingly similar. Not surprisingly, they share a common ancestor. Seagulls and pelicans are similar in their appearance, behavior, and DNA. Again, they share a common ancestor, from which they deviated in relatively minor but important ways. Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis were more alike than they were different, branching off from the evolutionary tree fairly recently in evolutionary history.

Vestigial traits which are physical characteristics that are gradually working their way out of an organism’s genetic profile. Most of these traits are benign, but some can be harmful. In humans, classic examples include the appendix, wisdom teeth, the tailbone and tonsils. We can hardly be considered an ideal species, their are many inherent design flaws in the human body. Evolution doesn’t care about perfection.

Human embryos resemble those of many other species. Genes that date back to the origin of cells, which are expressed during a middle phase of embryonic development. This explains why our embryos have a tail when they are a few weeks old.

Our war against bacteria is rapidly producing highly resistant strains, leading to fears of a post antibiotic era. Similarly, many animals are adapting to pesticides, including fruit flies and even rats.

Adaptation is an ongoing, life sustaining process by which living organisms adjust to environmental changes. The two types of adaptations are structural and behavioral.

Before snakes slithered, they had limbs similar to those of lizards. To better adapt to their environment of small holes in the ground, they lost their legs. This allowed them to fit into a tighter space, in which they could hide from predators. Mice have very large ears as a result of evolutionary adaptation. This is because they are nocturnal creatures, and since they do not have night vision they have adapted incredible hearing capabilities to detect predators. The evolution of the giraffe's long neck occurred so that the animal could reach leaves in taller trees. Since giraffes do not bend their knees to drink from a pool of water, they require a long neck that can reach all the way down to the water.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Over the years I've seen some creationists attempt to dismiss observed cases of populations evolving by saying "that's adaptation, not evolution". Specific to this forum, one creationist in particular seems to enjoy repeating this talking point quite a bit (she knows who she is).
Jester1.gif
Could you possibly mean me Jose Fly? You know the difficulty I have with responding to you is that you become your avatar.
I think this could possibly be why I have trouble taking you seriously. You just become Mr Grumblebum Cranky Face.
badmood.gif


So in the interest of mutual understanding, I think it would be helpful if this creationist (or any other who cares to give it a try) would compare and contrast "evolution" and "adaptation". To be clear, I'm talking "compare and contrast" in the sense that most of us are used to from our K-12 days. Something like.....

So we begin with the usual putdown just to set the scene....
ermm.gif
Make sure you reduce the opposition to K-12 status.
I think we understand perception management here.

So........
Evolution is a theory based on an imagined hypothesis. It is suggested to occur when a series of imagined beneficial mutations take place for no apparent reason, or natural selection drives a species to develop into another species of creature altogether (again for no apparent reason) and supposedly takes place via imaginary processes which can never be duplicated in a lab. Examples of evolution would be suggested processes that make it possible for amoebas to eventually turn into dinosaurs, despite the fact that no one has ever seen a single part of the process take place. Gaps in knowledge or evidence can be filled in by speculation, assumption and misinterpreting evidence.

Adaptation on the other hand are minor changes that can occur only within a species. e.g. the length of a bird's beak or the color of an animal's coat or the ability of a plant to survive in a desert. It occurs when a change of environment or an alteration in food sources cause small changes in the animals or bird's ability to survive in a change of circumstance and takes place via small, mostly cosmetic changes driven by that alteration in the creature's living conditions. Examples of adaptation observed by man would be the hawthorn fly, stickleback fish, bacteria and the Galapagos species that Darwin observed.....none of which showed any alteration in the creature's natural structure, but merely minor changes to facilitate survival in a different, more marine oriented environment.
In all cases, the fish remained fish.....the flies remained flies....and the bacteria remained bacteria. The Galapagos species also remained true to their "kind" with small alterations in their appearance due to natural adaptations to their marine environment.


The primary differences between evolution and adaptation are:

1.Minor adaptive changes within a single species, as opposed to one creature morphing into a series of completely different creatures over millions of years.

2. Small adaptations that facilitate survival within a species produce variety but remain true to their kind. Ability to adapt does not support a long series of beneficial mutations e.g. eventually turning land animals into whales. Most mutations are not beneficial, but detrimental to an organism.
Common ancestry is assumed but not provable. It is not evidence based. It is suggested.


3. Plants can adapt but remain plants. Insects can adapt but remain insects. Marine creatures can adapt but remain marine creatures and land animals can adapt but remain true to their kind.
The difference between the the two is vast, but the line is so blurred by science that most supporters of macro-evolution cannot even see it.

Will there be anything else?
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
Evolution is the development of a species or organism from its original or primitive state to its present or specialized state via natural selection whereby organisms adapt to their environment.
That includes all modern living prokaryotes, too.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Will there be anything else?

So funny that you are so smug when you can be so wrong. Just like posting that wide-grin emoji at the end of that horribly false account of "Einstein" as a student coming back at the atheist professor. You paraded that one as if it were truth with so much ignorant glee. It was, quite honestly, disturbing. The kind of thing that makes a sensible person lose a bit of their faith in humanity.

At any rate - even if a creature did evolve out of its "kind" - who would be there to witness it? Wouldn't it simply seem as if we'd just found a new species? Who would have been there as the evolution took place? The only thing you could possibly do is try to document the process as it took place. And taking into account how long reliable documentation methods have been around for such things, or the ability to travel with ease, information share, etc. - you're talking a few thousand years. Not nearly long enough to witness anything but the small "adaptations" you are willing to accept. My feeling is that, in time, you will be proven wrong... but, sadly, we'll all be gone by then. So you'll have no nose to rub it in... nor will there be anyone who remembers you in order to know you were one of the ones who needed their nose rubbed in it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Could you possibly mean me Jose Fly? You know the difficulty I have with responding to you is that you become your avatar.
I think this could possibly be why I have trouble taking you seriously. You just become Mr Grumblebum Cranky Face.

That's probably because I don't like what you do here.....at all. You accuse me and my colleagues--people I've known for decades--of deliberately committing fraud, misleading the public, and engaging in an enormous conspiracy. If you truly didn't expect anyone to take offense at that, then I have to wonder about your mental state.

So........
Evolution is a theory based on an imagined hypothesis. It is suggested to occur when a series of imagined beneficial mutations take place for no apparent reason, or natural selection drives a species to develop into another species of creature altogether (again for no apparent reason) and supposedly takes place via imaginary processes which can never be duplicated in a lab. Examples of evolution would be suggested processes that make it possible for amoebas to eventually turn into dinosaurs, despite the fact that no one has ever seen a single part of the process take place. Gaps in knowledge or evidence can be filled in by speculation, assumption and misinterpreting evidence.

Adaptation on the other hand are minor changes that can occur only within a species. e.g. the length of a bird's beak or the color of an animal's coat or the ability of a plant to survive in a desert. It occurs when a change of environment or an alteration in food sources cause small changes in the animals or bird's ability to survive in a change of circumstance and takes place via small, mostly cosmetic changes driven by that alteration in the creature's living conditions. Examples of adaptation observed by man would be the hawthorn fly, stickleback fish, bacteria and the Galapagos species that Darwin observed.....none of which showed any alteration in the creature's natural structure, but merely minor changes to facilitate survival in a different, more marine oriented environment.
In all cases, the fish remained fish.....the flies remained flies....and the bacteria remained bacteria. The Galapagos species also remained true to their "kind" with small alterations in their appearance due to natural adaptations to their marine environment.




1.Minor adaptive changes within a single species, as opposed to one creature morphing into a series of completely different creatures over millions of years.

2. Small adaptations that facilitate survival within a species produce variety but remain true to their kind. Ability to adapt does not support a long series of beneficial mutations e.g. eventually turning land animals into whales. Most mutations are not beneficial, but detrimental to an organism.
Common ancestry is assumed but not provable. It is not evidence based. It is suggested.


3. Plants can adapt but remain plants. Insects can adapt but remain insects. Marine creatures can adapt but remain marine creatures and land animals can adapt but remain true to their kind.
The difference between the the two is vast, but the line is so blurred by science that most supporters of macro-evolution cannot even see it.

Will there be anything else?
Some follow-up questions.

How do the changes within "adaptation" occur? Are mutations involved?

Is natural selection involved in "adaptation"?

When you describe examples of "adaptation" you say they don't show "any alteration in the creature's natural structure". What do you mean by "natural structure"?

Can you provide links or citations to the examples of "adaptation" you listed?

When you say "fish remained fish, flies remained flies, and bacteria remained bacteria", given your previous criterion of "adaptation" only occurring within a species, are you under the impression that fish, flies, and bacteria are species designations?

You again use the term "kind". Can you define it?

Finally, where did you get these definitions of "evolution" and "adaptation"?
 

miodrag

Member
Evolution is the development of a species or organism from its original or primitive state to its present or specialized state via natural selection whereby organisms adapt to their environment.

Not sure about what difference you make here exactly. What else triggers natural selection, other than environment?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Evolution is the source on an endless and meaningless argument. It occurs when boredom meets ignorance and takes place via the internet. Examples of evolution would be ignored or dismissed and are a complete waste of your time.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
At any rate - even if a creature did evolve out of its "kind" - who would be there to witness it?

There is not a single shred of evidence that any creature ever evolved outside of its kind. When there is no actual evidence, what takes its place?....supposition, suggestion and ability to interpret "evidence" to suit what you want to believe.

Wouldn't it simply seem as if we'd just found a new species? Who would have been there as the evolution took place? The only thing you could possibly do is try to document the process as it took place.

On what do you base this documentation if no one was there to witness it? There has to be a "process" to document.....but there is no evidence that this process ever took place except in the fertile minds of the scientists who are 'interpreting' the 'evidence'.

And taking into account how long reliable documentation methods have been around for such things, or the ability to travel with ease, information share, etc. - you're talking a few thousand years. Not nearly long enough to witness anything but the small "adaptations" you are willing to accept.

So in the meantime, all we have is supposition and suggestion about a process that is implied but cannot be proven.
The "evidence" could just as easily fit Intelligent Design.

My feeling is that, in time, you will be proven wrong... but, sadly, we'll all be gone by then. So you'll have no nose to rub it in... nor will there be anyone who remembers you in order to know you were one of the ones who needed their nose rubbed in it.

You know how feelings can be wrong? I have no intention of being "gone" or to 'rub anyone's nose' in anything.
The purpose of my contribution to any threads on evolution is to demonstrate to the undecided that science has no real evidence to prove that a long slow process of evolution ever took place.....but at the same time, to also demonstrate that creation wasn't the work of some celestial magician 'poofing' things into existence in a week.

There is middle ground with ID.....so that is my position. It is upheld by both established science and the Genesis account.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's probably because I don't like what you do here.....at all. You accuse me and my colleagues--people I've known for decades--of deliberately committing fraud, misleading the public, and engaging in an enormous conspiracy. If you truly didn't expect anyone to take offense at that, then I have to wonder about your mental state.

Ah, now I see where the animosity originates. You see, science has been on a pedestal for so long, that no one can imagine any logical thinking person could possibly disagree with it. The educated ones have elevated themselves above the common people and how dare they question what we study.....
and how dare they question our findings!
2mo5pow.gif


When egos drive anything, there is often deception and corruption. Add money to that equation and you have a recipe for fraud. I am not saying the fraud is deliberate, but carefully 'managed'.
Humility cannot survive in the world of academia. The hostility comes from wounded egos. If what you believe is true, then no one should be able to show you up as flawed in your evaluations. Hostility comes when egos are threatened.

Science is the study of the natural world and tries to determine through its different 'branches', how the natural systems work and interact on earth and in the big universal picture.

Unfortunately, science has become a "religion" to many people who cannot imagine why anyone would want to discredit their ideas or methods. They have their 'idols' and 'holy' writings that are treated like scripture.

We humans are designed to worship, whether we acknowledge that fact or not. Worship is as old as the human race itself, but not seen in the animal kingdom at all. If it isn't a specific deity that is worshipped, then it is something that replaces that deity and is pursued with equal devotion and fervor. For some, it is sport, attending their 'temples' and adoring their 'idols' on the sporting field every week.
For others its 'stars' in the entertainment industry, following their trends in fashion and music and lifestyle.
We can be caught in this very human behavior without even being consciously aware of what we are doing.
You and I are no exception.

From my perspective, I see satan directing humans into whatever will take them away from the Creator and his worship, substituting all manner of things to achieve his goals. And what better way to deceive than to make everyone believe that there is no Creator, or if there is, he isn't one bit interested in what we do. And you have to be some kind of mental case if you believe in the devil. :p Right?

Some follow-up questions.

How do the changes within "adaptation" occur? Are mutations involved?

"Plants and animals have special characteristics, or traits, that help them survive in their surroundings. They develop these traits through a process called adaptation. ... It occurs when natural selection acts on a heritable trait, or characteristic, that allows an individual to better survive in its environment."


adaptation | biology and physiology

Is natural selection involved in "adaptation"?

According to Britannica, yes.

When you describe examples of "adaptation" you say they don't show "any alteration in the creature's natural structure". What do you mean by "natural structure"?

There appears to be a basic structure in most vertebrates.

5.8.jpg


Basic or natural structure can mean that this framework can be used in a variety of creatures without them being related.
It is just as explainable when describing ID. Don't we ourselves use basic structures to build our own things?
If it works for all and is sound, why deviate?

whalesevoln.gif


Here again we see a similarity in bone structure in different creatures. As a framework for the creature, it works for all of them. It does not necessarily indicate an evolutionary process, but could well be the work of a master designer, using that basic structure in a variety of creatures.

The supposed vestigial pelvic bones and hindlimbs have been shown to be involved with mating habits.

Status shift for whale pelvic bones

Can you provide links or citations to the examples of "adaptation" you listed?

Do you mean the hawthorn flies, stickleback fish etc? All available with a Google search.
This one from Wiki.....
600px-Drosophila_speciation_experiment.svg.png

54911-050-0E225E16.jpg


What we see with "speciation" is variety within a species. Darwin's finches are all still finches. (Bird "kind")
All are identifiable as varieties within their "species". (The ones described in Genesis that even a child could comprehend)

When you say "fish remained fish, flies remained flies, and bacteria remained bacteria", given your previous criterion of "adaptation" only occurring within a species, are you under the impression that fish, flies, and bacteria are species designations?

"A hierarchical system is used for classifying organisms to the species level. This system is called taxonomic classification. The broadest classifications are by domain and kingdom; the most specific classification is by genus and species. The hierarchical groupings in between include phylum, class, family, and order."
Shown here in this example of the grizzly bear....

biological-classification-8-638.jpg


Biological classification
(page 8)

You again use the term "kind". Can you define it?

As we can see from the examples used, "kinds" are rather self explanatory. Bears are a kind. But not all animals who look like bears, actually are. Koalas for example. Not all mammals are of a single "kind" but all feed their young milk. Similarity does not always mean relationship.

Dogs are a "kind". Cats are a "kind". Insects are a "kind"....birds are a "kind"....fish are a "kind". But science can tell us a little more about the details. What it cannot tell us with any certainty is that one "kind" ever evolved into another.

Finally, where did you get these definitions of "evolution" and "adaptation"?

Where did you get yours? :D Obviously from a source you trust.....me too.
 
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